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> Many women SIMPLY do not code for the same reason many men do not code. Well, yes, I suppose this is true. If you pick a random woman who cannot code, that i

by ZoFreX 13y ago

> Many women SIMPLY do not code for the same reason many men do not code. Well, yes, I suppose this is true. If you pick a random woman who cannot code, that is probably the reason. What about the women who have been driven out of coding simply because they happen to be female? It's something I have personally witnessed, both in the education system, and in commercial settings. There are real problems here, problems that you through your good fortune are not adversely affected by and in fact could go through your whole life without even knowing that they exist. > Instead we can put our efforts into teaching everyone to code: "We Code." If that's something you want to exist, then go make it - no one is stopping you, and the existence of "Girls Who Code" is in no way an impediment to your goals. I find it a little distasteful to ever say someone should give up on their personal project just because you think they should be doing it differently. Go do it then, if you're so sure you have the answers!

rokhayakebe 13y ago
A women cannot be driven out of coding by anyone other than herself. This is not a social thing. This is not hard core research requiring millions to get started. Only a PC, Stack Overflow and an internet connection are required. Even now on HN I cannot tell who is a girl or guy by their username, let alone the gender of the person who wrote the code that populates the webpage I read.
- ceol 13y ago
  > A women cannot be driven out of coding by anyone other than herself. What a disgustingly ignorant thing to say. The sheer obliviousness of your privilege in this regard is staggering. It's ridiculous to expect someone to put up with harassment and vitriol and, when they finally give up and leave — which is completely normal and something any normal person, including yourself, would do — say that it was all on them. You may not even realize it, but your comment actually excuses all of the sexism and misogyny in the industry. It's putting the onus, and the blame, on the victim. That's awful.
  - vezzy-fnord 13y ago
    You're conflating coding with the culture behind it. And even the culture isn't uniform, it's divided into many different subcultures. For all intents and purposes, there's nothing stopping a woman from learning how to program, contribute to open source and engage in community. A lot of people, male and female alike, operate under a pseudonym. Unless you're a celebrity, it's generally smarter for plenty of reasons, including risk management (something contemporary feminists don't seem to comprehend) and OPSEC. Even if you do use your real name and explicitly denote your sex as female, you'll still survive. You certainly aren't immune from trolling. No one is. But frankly most cases of "harassment and vitriol" I've read about (on the Geek Feminism Wiki, for instance) tend to be mostly about offended sensibilities. This isn't victim blaming. It's being realistic.
    - ceol 13y ago
      > For all intents and purposes, there's nothing stopping a woman from learning how to program, contribute to open source and engage in community. Except the community, which is generally hostile towards women. Sure, someone can learn how to program on their own without ever interacting with the programming community, but that means shutting them off from a huge and helpful resource. > A lot of people, male and female alike, operate under a pseudonym. "It's fine as long as you never say you're a woman!" Yeah, that's indicative of a friendly culture. >Unless you're a celebrity, it's generally smarter for plenty of reasons, including risk management (something contemporary feminists don't seem to comprehend) and OPSEC. Aside from all your open source work never being attributable to yourself, sure. It's totally smarter. I'm sure no one ever contributes to open source projects with the intent of getting their name out. And your little aside to "contemporary feminists" (ironically in the same comment where you complain about generalizing cultures) just reveals your true intention in this discussion. > ...tend to be mostly about offended sensibilities. Ah, here we go. The "you're just too sensitive" argument. As though not wanting to be hurt or harassed or bothered is a bad thing. As though the culture of trolling and adolescent behavior that permeates the programming community should remain the status quo, and anyone who calls for change just doesn't have thick enough skin. You sure do bring some unique and insightful contributions.
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  > A women cannot be driven out of coding by anyone other than herself. This is not a social thing. Anxiety toward certain fields driven by experiences in formative years -- including experiences of other people's attitudes, which may include bias in perceived racial or gender abilities or roles -- is a real and often socially-induced thing, and the most well-known manifestation is math anxiety. Its not really hard to see how this can relate to programming, particularly given the close relation between programming and math.
rokhayakebe 13y ago
There are real problems here? What are these problems?
- ceol 13y ago
  Did you even read the article or any of the comments in this thread?

by ZoFreX 13y ago

rokhayakebe 13y ago

A women cannot be driven out of coding by anyone other than herself. This is not a social thing. This is not hard core research requiring millions to get started. Only a PC, Stack Overflow and an internet connection are required. Even now on HN I cannot tell who is a girl or guy by their username, let alone the gender of the person who wrote the code that populates the webpage I read.

ceol 13y ago
> A women cannot be driven out of coding by anyone other than herself. What a disgustingly ignorant thing to say. The sheer obliviousness of your privilege in this regard is staggering. It's ridiculous to expect someone to put up with harassment and vitriol and, when they finally give up and leave — which is completely normal and something any normal person, including yourself, would do — say that it was all on them. You may not even realize it, but your comment actually excuses all of the sexism and misogyny in the industry. It's putting the onus, and the blame, on the victim. That's awful.
- vezzy-fnord 13y ago
  You're conflating coding with the culture behind it. And even the culture isn't uniform, it's divided into many different subcultures. For all intents and purposes, there's nothing stopping a woman from learning how to program, contribute to open source and engage in community. A lot of people, male and female alike, operate under a pseudonym. Unless you're a celebrity, it's generally smarter for plenty of reasons, including risk management (something contemporary feminists don't seem to comprehend) and OPSEC. Even if you do use your real name and explicitly denote your sex as female, you'll still survive. You certainly aren't immune from trolling. No one is. But frankly most cases of "harassment and vitriol" I've read about (on the Geek Feminism Wiki, for instance) tend to be mostly about offended sensibilities. This isn't victim blaming. It's being realistic.
  - ceol 13y ago
    > For all intents and purposes, there's nothing stopping a woman from learning how to program, contribute to open source and engage in community. Except the community, which is generally hostile towards women. Sure, someone can learn how to program on their own without ever interacting with the programming community, but that means shutting them off from a huge and helpful resource. > A lot of people, male and female alike, operate under a pseudonym. "It's fine as long as you never say you're a woman!" Yeah, that's indicative of a friendly culture. >Unless you're a celebrity, it's generally smarter for plenty of reasons, including risk management (something contemporary feminists don't seem to comprehend) and OPSEC. Aside from all your open source work never being attributable to yourself, sure. It's totally smarter. I'm sure no one ever contributes to open source projects with the intent of getting their name out. And your little aside to "contemporary feminists" (ironically in the same comment where you complain about generalizing cultures) just reveals your true intention in this discussion. > ...tend to be mostly about offended sensibilities. Ah, here we go. The "you're just too sensitive" argument. As though not wanting to be hurt or harassed or bothered is a bad thing. As though the culture of trolling and adolescent behavior that permeates the programming community should remain the status quo, and anyone who calls for change just doesn't have thick enough skin. You sure do bring some unique and insightful contributions.
dragonwriter 13y ago
> A women cannot be driven out of coding by anyone other than herself. This is not a social thing. Anxiety toward certain fields driven by experiences in formative years -- including experiences of other people's attitudes, which may include bias in perceived racial or gender abilities or roles -- is a real and often socially-induced thing, and the most well-known manifestation is math anxiety. Its not really hard to see how this can relate to programming, particularly given the close relation between programming and math.

rokhayakebe 13y ago

There are real problems here? What are these problems?

ceol 13y ago
Did you even read the article or any of the comments in this thread?