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I'm not sure this is a fair assessment. The (admittedly likely butchered at this point) quote: > If someone was going to be really good at programming they wou

by gfodor 13y ago

I'm not sure this is a fair assessment. The (admittedly likely butchered at this point) quote: > If someone was going to be really good at programming they would have found it on their own. Then if you go look at the bios of successful founders this is invariably the case, they were all hacking on computers at age 13. What that means is the problem is 10 years upstream of us. In the very next sentence pg states that the lack of interest in young girls at age 13 is an actual problem. If he had some inherent belief that "girls just don't like computers" thing (ie, the great "male tech misogyny" strawman) he wouldn't cast it as a problem to be solved.

tptacek 13y ago
Once again: misogyny is a specific thing. It connotes an overt bias against women. That bias, while definitely present in our industry (and for some reason especially well-represented on HN) is rare. I would be shocked to find out that Paul Graham was a misogynist: it would not fit the rest of the picture that I have of him from what he writes. But the absence of bias against women is inadequate innoculation against gender imbalance in the industry. It doesn't correct for bias towards men. That bias is pervasive. It's easy to see why: it involves saying nice things about people who do good work, and then simply generalizing it out a bit. The end result is a system of privilege for people who "fit the mold" for successful startup hackers.
- gfodor 13y ago
  It sounded to me like you took pg's quote to mean he felt was blind to the factor opportunity takes towards gaining affinity for a subject. If this were true (and his next sentence seems to invalidate this) it would mean he felt that women were less capable, inherently, of appreciating computers and programming. At the risk of splitting hairs, this would be a misogynistic viewpoint. This is the narrative these clowns want people to believe anyway, that someone like pg is a 1-dimensional cartoon villain who thinks "girls' brains can't code, what am I supposed to do about it?!"
  - tptacek 13y ago
    It's easier at this point to just say what I do and don't actually think. I don't think Paul Graham believes women are intrinsically less capable than men. I do think he has a blind spot regarding privilege and specifically the way his reputational energy reinforces privilege, and another related blind spot about how that fortified privilege impedes the progress of women in our field. Another way to put it would be, if Paul Graham acted personally as the hiring manager for every YC company, I wouldn't be too concerned. But he's not: his thoughts about capability and aptitude are filtered through the brains of hundreds of (mostly young, male) nerds.
    - gfodor 13y ago
      fair point and well put.
    - drewblaisdell 13y ago
      > I do think he has a blind spot regarding privilege and specifically the way his reputational energy reinforces privilege, and another related blind spot about how that fortified privilege impedes the progress of women in our field. I don't know whether I agree or disagree with this (mostly, I just don't know what Paul Graham thinks about what he hasn't publicly spoken of), but this is a pretty serious claim to extrapolate from, as you wrote, an "impromptu essay". I want to see meaningful change in the gender distribution/bias of this industry, but it's a shame that conversations about this frequently seem to contain detailed analyses of a reasonable person's "controversial remarks". It feeds a fire that shouldn't be fed.
RivieraKid 13y ago
> "girls just don't like computers" I believe* in something very similar – that girls have a lower natural inclination to computers and programming than boys have. Is that considered wrong or politically incorrect? *believe = about 85% confidence
- hythloday 13y ago
  What does the word "natural" mean there?
  - RivieraKid 13y ago
    That it's in the DNA. It's nature, npt nurture.

by gfodor 13y ago

tptacek 13y ago

Once again: misogyny is a specific thing. It connotes an overt bias against women. That bias, while definitely present in our industry (and for some reason especially well-represented on HN) is rare. I would be shocked to find out that Paul Graham was a misogynist: it would not fit the rest of the picture that I have of him from what he writes. But the absence of bias against women is inadequate innoculation against gender imbalance in the industry. It doesn't correct for bias towards men. That bias is pervasive. It's easy to see why: it involves saying nice things about people who do good work, and then simply generalizing it out a bit. The end result is a system of privilege for people who "fit the mold" for successful startup hackers.

gfodor 13y ago
It sounded to me like you took pg's quote to mean he felt was blind to the factor opportunity takes towards gaining affinity for a subject. If this were true (and his next sentence seems to invalidate this) it would mean he felt that women were less capable, inherently, of appreciating computers and programming. At the risk of splitting hairs, this would be a misogynistic viewpoint. This is the narrative these clowns want people to believe anyway, that someone like pg is a 1-dimensional cartoon villain who thinks "girls' brains can't code, what am I supposed to do about it?!"
- tptacek 13y ago
  It's easier at this point to just say what I do and don't actually think. I don't think Paul Graham believes women are intrinsically less capable than men. I do think he has a blind spot regarding privilege and specifically the way his reputational energy reinforces privilege, and another related blind spot about how that fortified privilege impedes the progress of women in our field. Another way to put it would be, if Paul Graham acted personally as the hiring manager for every YC company, I wouldn't be too concerned. But he's not: his thoughts about capability and aptitude are filtered through the brains of hundreds of (mostly young, male) nerds.
  - gfodor 13y ago
    fair point and well put.
  - drewblaisdell 13y ago
    > I do think he has a blind spot regarding privilege and specifically the way his reputational energy reinforces privilege, and another related blind spot about how that fortified privilege impedes the progress of women in our field. I don't know whether I agree or disagree with this (mostly, I just don't know what Paul Graham thinks about what he hasn't publicly spoken of), but this is a pretty serious claim to extrapolate from, as you wrote, an "impromptu essay". I want to see meaningful change in the gender distribution/bias of this industry, but it's a shame that conversations about this frequently seem to contain detailed analyses of a reasonable person's "controversial remarks". It feeds a fire that shouldn't be fed.

RivieraKid 13y ago

> "girls just don't like computers" I believe* in something very similar – that girls have a lower natural inclination to computers and programming than boys have. Is that considered wrong or politically incorrect? *believe = about 85% confidence

hythloday 13y ago
What does the word "natural" mean there?
- RivieraKid 13y ago
  That it's in the DNA. It's nature, npt nurture.