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First, I'll say, tptacek, virtually everything you write on HN is spot on, but it's most on when you're talking about issues of sexism, racism, power, and privi

by jfarmer 13y ago

First, I'll say, tptacek, virtually everything you write on HN is spot on, but it's most on when you're talking about issues of sexism, racism, power, and privilege. The tech industry suffers from a collective privilege-blindness and I appreciate anyone who spends any amount of their time and energy talking about it coherently and persuasively. When I was in seventh grade, we were assigned to write a little speech about what we'd do if we were in charge of the school. One of my classmates, Dan, gave a speech about how he'd use computers to more rightly integrate school and home-life. After I was done, I asked, "What about people who don't have computers at home?" He responded with a look of confusion on his face, "What? You mean like poor people or something?" My family didn't have enough money to afford a computer growing up. I got my first computer in 10th grade: a 486 running Windows 3.1 that my mother's boss was going to simply throw away. Dan's words felt like a slap in the face, even in 7th grade. If I had read pg's words in 7th grade, they would have felt like a slap in the face, too. Getting my face slapped does not make me or anyone else more interested. It makes people think, "This thing isn't for me." People in technology, especially men, are utterly blind to privilege. It's astounding. It's also frustrating because explaining privilege to someone who has never seriously experienced the lack of it is like trying to explain to a fish what it's like to breath without water. Here's another story. I recently mentored a 13-year-old kid through an after-school non-profit. I taught him the basics of programming. He had all the affinity in the world, but it was still hard even with my guidance. Why? There was one laptop shared among all the members of the family — mother, father, 3 brothers, 2 sisters — and he'd only show up to our sessions with the laptop maybe 50% of the time. Any work he'd do between session would often be lost because other people would tinker with it. Everyone around him teased him for playing with computers so much and being so "nerdy" and "gay." Neither of his parents spoke much English — a Spanish translator had to be present when I was having an extended conversation with either. But obviously my student just didn't want it bad enough. Blagh.

baddox 13y ago
But what is your proposed solution to this idea of privilege? It seems like you're more disappointed with a lack of awareness of it (although a young child shouldn't be blamed for ignorance of what everyone else's home is like), rather than the existence of it. So if I say "yes, I get it, I'm a white male and therefore life is statistically easier for me," have I sufficiently recognized my "privilege"? Or do I have to spend my entire life keeping to myself the fact that I occasionally have to work hard and occasionally still fail due to my own choices and abilities?
- jfarmer 13y ago
  I'm not sure what you mean by "solution." To abolish privilege? That's neither possible nor desirable, IMO. Privilege exists wherever there's a differential in power for any reason. The problem is being blind to it and not understanding how it operates in your life and the lives of others. The solution to that problem is being committed to developing a deep sense of empathy.
  - auggierose 13y ago
    Well, just lost me here. What is the point of recognising privilege if you are not trying to get rid of it?
    - jfarmer 13y ago
      I don't want to derail the conversation since the #1 hurdle is the collective blindness people have to the concept on HN and in the tech community at large. It's a complex thing to understand and I don't claim to understand it perfectly or even well. Everyone is privileged in certain ways that make them blind to other types of privilege. Feminists use the word "intersectionality" to describe this state of affairs. Anyhow, the point (IMO) is to learn how to navigate in the world without unknowingly exercising your privilege to the detriment of others, like an oafish tourist who walks right through the middle of someone's rock garden because they didn't know any better and when they're informed respond with, "It was just a bunch of stupid rocks! What's the big deal?" If you grok the concept of privilege, great! My experience is that on HN virtually nobody does. tptacek's comment above is the clearest I've ever seen on the subject here.
      - mercer 13y ago
        Spot on! Maybe it's beneficial to use a term that doesn't make people defensive ('privileged? me? I worked hard to get where I am!), but I do agree it's important to make people aware of it. A week or so ago one of our former Dutch politicians wrote a column about 'the elite' in Holland. This resulted in a highly entertaining but tragic borderline-flamewar between said politician and some well-known Dutch people. Entertaining because it was fascinating to see such 'impactful' people commenting on an internet forum, and tragic because the discussion became about the term 'elite' and the perceived insult by the 'accused' individuals, rather than about the point of the article: pointing out the reality of there being an 'elite' and asking some relatively open questions on what this realization means.
icebraining 13y ago
The last paragraph took some weight from your post, in my opinion. I agree with you in general, but comparing that description of your student with my own experience, I can't help but think that maybe he really doesn't want it enough. Having a computer at home, he's in a much better position than I was, when I learned programming at 13 by going to a public PC for 3h/week. I also didn't know English, nor did I have any programming classes until many years later. Later, my first home computer was a BASIC interpreter, and I also couldn't save the programs because it had no storage, so I wrote all the code to paper before shutting it down each time. I know I'm probably missing a lot of hindrances you haven't described, so I won't judge the situation just from that, but it does make your post weaker, IMHO. Also, why haven't you got him a pen drive yet? ;)
- jfarmer 13y ago
  It does sound like you wanted it more or at least had a way of approaching the problem that made it possible for you to get what you wanted more easily than my student did. But let's teleport all the people pg or anyone else here would consider "hackers" into your situation at age 13. How many would've kept at it? I'm also wondering why you left out the most important dimension, IMO, which is social support. Did your friends antagonize you for pursuing this as a child? Were there any other people in your life who understood even the faintest bit of what you were doing? Anyhow, this isn't battle of the anecdotes, as if one has to win. It's easy to see the way out from the outside; it's another question when you're on the inside. It sounds like you were a precocious and intimidatingly determined child. I'm sure that's served you well in many things! :)
  - icebraining 13y ago
    Regarding social support, my friends didn't really know and my parents couldn't really help (they're both actors with no particular affinity for technology). As for the determination, unfortunately not, I was always a pretty lazy kid - I just freaking enjoyed it. Anyhow, this isn't battle of the anecdotes, as if one has to win. Sure, and as I said, I agree with your post, it's just that when you're talking about the poor conditions that many kids have, and the you describe one with a home computer and access to programming classes, it takes the strength from your point. I was picturing worse conditions, frankly.

by jfarmer 13y ago

baddox 13y ago

But what is your proposed solution to this idea of privilege? It seems like you're more disappointed with a lack of awareness of it (although a young child shouldn't be blamed for ignorance of what everyone else's home is like), rather than the existence of it. So if I say "yes, I get it, I'm a white male and therefore life is statistically easier for me," have I sufficiently recognized my "privilege"? Or do I have to spend my entire life keeping to myself the fact that I occasionally have to work hard and occasionally still fail due to my own choices and abilities?

jfarmer 13y ago
I'm not sure what you mean by "solution." To abolish privilege? That's neither possible nor desirable, IMO. Privilege exists wherever there's a differential in power for any reason. The problem is being blind to it and not understanding how it operates in your life and the lives of others. The solution to that problem is being committed to developing a deep sense of empathy.
- auggierose 13y ago
  Well, just lost me here. What is the point of recognising privilege if you are not trying to get rid of it?
  - jfarmer 13y ago
    I don't want to derail the conversation since the #1 hurdle is the collective blindness people have to the concept on HN and in the tech community at large. It's a complex thing to understand and I don't claim to understand it perfectly or even well. Everyone is privileged in certain ways that make them blind to other types of privilege. Feminists use the word "intersectionality" to describe this state of affairs. Anyhow, the point (IMO) is to learn how to navigate in the world without unknowingly exercising your privilege to the detriment of others, like an oafish tourist who walks right through the middle of someone's rock garden because they didn't know any better and when they're informed respond with, "It was just a bunch of stupid rocks! What's the big deal?" If you grok the concept of privilege, great! My experience is that on HN virtually nobody does. tptacek's comment above is the clearest I've ever seen on the subject here.
    - mercer 13y ago
      Spot on! Maybe it's beneficial to use a term that doesn't make people defensive ('privileged? me? I worked hard to get where I am!), but I do agree it's important to make people aware of it. A week or so ago one of our former Dutch politicians wrote a column about 'the elite' in Holland. This resulted in a highly entertaining but tragic borderline-flamewar between said politician and some well-known Dutch people. Entertaining because it was fascinating to see such 'impactful' people commenting on an internet forum, and tragic because the discussion became about the term 'elite' and the perceived insult by the 'accused' individuals, rather than about the point of the article: pointing out the reality of there being an 'elite' and asking some relatively open questions on what this realization means.

icebraining 13y ago

The last paragraph took some weight from your post, in my opinion. I agree with you in general, but comparing that description of your student with my own experience, I can't help but think that maybe he really doesn't want it enough. Having a computer at home, he's in a much better position than I was, when I learned programming at 13 by going to a public PC for 3h/week. I also didn't know English, nor did I have any programming classes until many years later. Later, my first home computer was a BASIC interpreter, and I also couldn't save the programs because it had no storage, so I wrote all the code to paper before shutting it down each time. I know I'm probably missing a lot of hindrances you haven't described, so I won't judge the situation just from that, but it does make your post weaker, IMHO. Also, why haven't you got him a pen drive yet? ;)

jfarmer 13y ago
It does sound like you wanted it more or at least had a way of approaching the problem that made it possible for you to get what you wanted more easily than my student did. But let's teleport all the people pg or anyone else here would consider "hackers" into your situation at age 13. How many would've kept at it? I'm also wondering why you left out the most important dimension, IMO, which is social support. Did your friends antagonize you for pursuing this as a child? Were there any other people in your life who understood even the faintest bit of what you were doing? Anyhow, this isn't battle of the anecdotes, as if one has to win. It's easy to see the way out from the outside; it's another question when you're on the inside. It sounds like you were a precocious and intimidatingly determined child. I'm sure that's served you well in many things! :)
- icebraining 13y ago
  Regarding social support, my friends didn't really know and my parents couldn't really help (they're both actors with no particular affinity for technology). As for the determination, unfortunately not, I was always a pretty lazy kid - I just freaking enjoyed it. Anyhow, this isn't battle of the anecdotes, as if one has to win. Sure, and as I said, I agree with your post, it's just that when you're talking about the poor conditions that many kids have, and the you describe one with a home computer and access to programming classes, it takes the strength from your point. I was picturing worse conditions, frankly.