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Help me bring Black Girls Code to Brooklyn - I'm matching the first $5K
- grandalf 13y agois there any way to contribute besides donating?
- smtddr 13y agoI was actually a presenter at one of these before. They used App Inventor http://appinventor.mit.edu/explore/ http://appinventor.mit.edu/explore/ It's actually a good experience for the girls if you plan for it in advance and have at least some knowledge of app-Inventor (I assume they almost always use that).
- knackernews 13y agoI'll chip in, but only because you asked, not because I think this will accomplish anything.
- kn0thing 13y agoEvery bit helps. I'm trying my best not to use that starfish cliche....
- nhangen 13y agoIs anyone else troubled by this? "Black Girls CODE is an international non-profit organization with local chapters in San Francisco, Memphis, Atlanta, Chicago, Detroit, and New York. They teach girls of color (ages 7-17) to become the masters of their technological futures by teaching them classes in game design, web development, robotics and more!" Why not teach all girls or call it, 'Impoverished Girls Code?'
- tokenizerrr 13y agoYep, racism goes both ways.
- hackinthebochs 13y agoTo imply that this is "racism" is just pure insanity. People really need to stop diluting the meaning of words to suit their agenda.
- gizmo686 13y agoHow is calling this racism a dilution of the word. The name clearly suggests that it is treating black people differently from non-black people. The fact that the word "racism" has been stigmatized to the point where an activity must be both racist-proper and harmful to a recognized marginalized group is irrelevant. We can argue about wheather or not the racism in this group is significant or even negative, but that is irrelevant to the fact that, at least the name, is racist.
- hackinthebochs 13y ago>The name clearly suggests that it is treating black people differently from non-black people. That's not what racism is. And don't bother digging up the 4th definition in some random online dictionary as your "proof". Dictionaries chronicle common usage, they are not the arbiters of meaning. One can understand the meaning of a word by comprehending its usage in culture and literature over the span of many decades. Once you do that you won't be able to claim that racism is "treating races differently".
- undoware 13y agoThis is so awesome. I'm stoked just knowing this is happening .
- undoware 13y agoI snort derisively at white kids saying 'reverse racism' like it's a thing. HOWEVER. 1. Why is there a white dude in the driver's seat on the donation page? That's a bit dances-with-wolves, and most of the (admittedly triggery) activist communities I orbit wouldn't stand for that sort of thing. If this isn't astroturf, where is the leadership from the community? (Which isn't to say they're not involved, I just want to see more presence so I know this is really for them.) 2. Usually the stated justification for a progressive segregated space (if there is such a thing -- not going to wade into that one) is to protect folks with PTSD oppression-related triggers. E.g. at many universities men aren't allowed in a lot of on-campus women's spaces for this reason. But it isn't clear if that's the case here, and if not, why is the space segregated? It would help me feel comfortable if they'd explain their reasoning. In general, though, like I said: stoked.
- detcader 13y agoAre you black? Are you a black woman?
- hackinthebochs 13y agoI don't have references on hand, but I've seen a study that showed girls are much more vocal and active in a classroom (specifically science/technology related) when its an all-girls setting. That in itself is a good reason to create introductory environments where girls can engage in the material without whatever social pressures keep them from doing so otherwise. As far as "black" goes, that's probably a function of the fact that its in brooklyn and to ensure that black girls realize this is for them.
- icegreentea 13y agoThe organization itself was founded a female african-american EE. I agree that that stuff should probably be on the donation page... but the flip side is they clearly picked Alexis because a) he's internet famous and b) he lives in Brooklyn, For the second, if the goal is to try to get black girls into programming, then there's very little reason for them to spend the resources on other people. Why limit to black? Because the founder felt culturally isolated while going through EE, and wanted to minimize that from happening in the future. Why limit to girls? Because the founder felt culturally isolated while going through EE, and wanted to minimize that from happening in the future. But seriously, the donation page should link to the charity's website: http://www.blackgirlscode.com/ http://www.blackgirlscode.com/
- kirillzubovsky 13y agoGotta love US and its inverse racism. "White girls code" would be persecuted like KKK is back in business, but "Black girls code" is all good. That's not right.
- isomorph 13y agoI think that's because black people have historically been "unluckier" than white people in the US. Do you feel the same way about the sexist component of this? Should I be annoyed that "Boys code" would be persecuted but "Girls code" is all good? (I'm not saying there are any correct answers to my questions)
- rdl 13y agoAlso in general poor neighborhoods are fairly segregated by race, in the US, so just by picking specific cities you're accomplishing much of the racial discrimination. I don't think it's a big deal in this case, but in general poor people in Detroit are black; poor people in inland empire are white/hispanic.
- _delirium 13y agoI think if some demographics are heavily underrepresented in a field, it makes some sense to target programs specifically to them. This does happen with regards to men as well, if that's the worry—in areas where men are underrepresented. For example there is a professional association specifically to support men in nursing and recruit more men into the profession: http://aamn.org/ http://aamn.org/
- eropple 13y ago> I think that's because black people have historically been "unluckier" than white people in the US. "Have historically been unluckier than", "are systematically objectified socially and repressed economically by"--I understand your typo, though, the keys are so close to each other on the keyboard. (The tenses are important, too. It isn't new, but it isn't dead.)
- 13y ago
- avelis 13y agoI am a member of Geekdom in San Francisco and they just hosted an event there recently. It appeared to be an alive and vibrant organization from what I saw. Great turnout too. Prior to that event I had no idea Black Girls Code existed. Thanks for bringing this to Hacker News for people to see. Here is a video of Rackspace S.F. showing their support: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08Kv1Q2noU4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08Kv1Q2noU4
- kn0thing 13y agoSure thing! Thanks for spreading the word about my fundraiser!
- hackinthebochs 13y agoOnly a handful of comments and this is already looking like your typical reddit thread regarding anything geared towards and underrepresented minority: "what about us white men???". I expect better from you guys. Perhaps that's my mistake.
- nilved 13y agoI've used more downvotes in this thread that I have in the previous 3 years of being on Hacker News.
- yetanotherphd 13y agoGood for both of you. Logical argument is only for people who have already proven that they subscribe to the progressive agenda. Downvotes and shaming are all these privileged white boys deserve.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- tptacek 13y agoOh look, an appeal to identity politics from the person whose one contribution to the site is "The Fundamental Theorem of Welfare Politics" on Wikipedia.
- yetanotherphd 13y agoI have zero idea what your post means, and it was "Fundamental Theorems of Welfare Economics".
- olduser55 13y agoWhat does number of submissions have to do with anything. You've truly turned into a elitist fuckwit. All them internet points must have gone to your head.
- rak 13y agoI kicked in during summer of code, and I'm just not doing well enough right now to help them out again. It's good to see it on HN, but the comments are probably going to take a dive soon.
- smtddr 13y agoAlready has. It's impossible to talk about black people on HN. ...and there are people who think the tech-community doesn't have a problem with race....
- AlexanderDhoore 13y agoIn Europe this would be inappropriate... (The "Black" in the title of the program, not the teaching girls, obviously.) I don't think any European here would disagree. The fact that you categorise someone as "black" is just awful. How black exactly do they have to be? Are you going to measure it? Are southern Italians black? What about Turks? ... See the problem? Edit: Just want to point out that I'm not talking about the specific word "black". Use whatever word you want. Just to put this into context: here, in Belgium, it's actually illegal to register someone's "race" (except for medical reasons).
- moistgorilla 13y agoI read somewhere that using african american is also bad since there are many black people that don't identify as african and don't even have african heritage. I think black is much more inclusive.
- gizmo686 13y agoAfrican-American also has the problem that not all black people identify themselves as American. Although it does lead to an interesting conversation about American imperialism when one expresses concern over how much of African governments are run by African-Americans.
- fortes 13y agoAlso, there are plenty of non-black people who were born in Africa.
- hackinthebochs 13y ago>The fact that you categorise someone as "black" is just awful Words have cultural connotations. I don't think one can make the claim that a word is "awful" by how its understood in a completely different culture.
- detcader 13y agoYes; try calling someone a 'spaz' in the UK.
- bluejes 13y agoComing right up...
- gnarbarian 13y agoSorry I donated all my money to the "Lesbian Eskimo Left-Handed Midget Albinos Code" [1] Charity. They are far less well represented in our industry. [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB9DSWxtsgU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB9DSWxtsgU
- mladenkovacevic 13y agoThink about your comment for a bit. Did you feel good making it? Ok, it's a free country and you have free speech. Now consider that to most intelligent people that comment was the most useless thing they read all day.
- gnarbarian 13y agoHumor is just my way of poking fun at quirks in our society. For example why aren't we as concerned about the male domination of the sanitation industry?[1] [1]http://jobstat.net/jobs/sanitation-worker/ http://jobstat.net/jobs/sanitation-worker/
- mladenkovacevic 13y agoOf all the "quirks" in this world you find this one worthy of snark? What I find more quirky is that using the word "black" is perfectly ok in all other domains of life "black neighborhood", "black music", "black hair", "black person"... But as soon as this word invades a professional domain tyically occupied by white males, with the goal of hopefully attracting some black girls who previously would have never seen programming as an option, it becomes a "quirk". Or as some other vigilant posters in this thread have indicated, out right DISCRIMINATION. Supposedly against blacks themselves, or maybe just human life in general. But who are we kidding, it's discrimination targeted at the world's most endangered creature -the rare and precious north american white male.
- gnarbarian 13y ago>Of all the "quirks" in this world you find this one worthy of snark? Because it's here on the front page and I was listening to the "Dead Milkmen". I'm sorry if I may have offended you. The quirk I was referring to is the fact that equality is only championed for trendy jobs perceived as desirable. There are no "Black Girls Construction" events for example.
- eliteraspberrie 13y agoAfrican-American women are severely underrepresented in IT, so this charity is addressing that problem. They are teaching children a skill. If that really bothers you, take a minute to reflect on yourself.
- nhangen 13y agoThis is the argument that always baffles me. There are many reasons for that imbalance, just as there are many reasons for imbalance in other industries (sometimes in the opposite direction). I coach youth sports, and many times the kids on my teams come from poor families. When I talk to them about their interests, not once have they mentioned or indicated that they would be prevented from pursuing that interest.
- lsiclait 13y agoGrowing up in the United States, I was often told that there were certain things that I could not do because I would face a glass ceiling due to my skin color. Reading history books it was clear that this was true for the people who came before me. Looking at the people who were in the positions I wanted to attain, it was clear that something was preventing people who look like me from succeeding in those fields. And listening to the comments I received from my peers, it was clear that I was not perceived in the same way as others. I can't speak for anyone other than myself. But, from my experience, it is helpful to know that people who look like you can succeed in this world.
- dopamean 13y agoWell you can speak for me because I was going to write basically this same post. I often felt this way growing up.
- nhangen 13y agoWho told you these things? Obviously, that's where the problem starts, and though I've never experienced that (nor has anyone I know), I can't deny that it exists.
- kwamenum86 13y agoThe day I left Hacker News and didn't look back. Sick and tired of this "community".
- nhangen 13y agoI don't think anyone is up in arms. Those questioning the charity are simply wondering why it's OK to have a black girls code charity and not OK for a white girls code one. Still, put us all in a room and I'm sure we'd get along fine.
- anu_gupta 13y agoThis from the person who can't comprehend that calling a customer a terrorist is wrong.
- nhangen 13y agoYou might not like it, but that doesn't make it wrong.
- hackinthebochs 13y ago>why it's OK to have a black girls code charity and not OK for a white girls code one If you have any comprehension of the racial history in the US and have to ask that then you really don't belong in this conversation.
- nhangen 13y agoI don't think it's your right to tell anyone whether or not they belong in a conversation. The post was made on a forum in which I'm a user. That gives me every right. You can try to marginalize the opinions of those that disagree with you, but that's not a rational argument against them.
- hackinthebochs 13y agoDespite what your teachers and your parents may have told you, your opinion is not inherently valid. You have shown yourself to be ignorant of too many things to provide a meaningful contribution to this discussion.
- detcader 13y agoI don't need White Boys Code. I'm a white male who learned to code when I was about 12 years old, at an NYIT summer program that my parents paid for. My high school had enough coding classes (including AP) that I could take one every year. My parents could afford to buy me a computer and they and others didn't stigmatize me for spending hours on it. I don't need White Boys Code and neither do white-boys-in-general. I guess this is a lot of stuffy white dude HNers' first interaction with a little thing called identity politics. Surely no white bystander questioned why the Black Panthers weren't called the People Panthers (and they did provide a plethora of community services, they weren't just a militia group[0]); we're at a time where, after black radical politics was systematically destroyed by the US government and police , white-people-in-general sort of exude this attitude of "you seem to have won [read: lost], stop rioting [i.e. Trayvon] and trying to organize around identity because we live in a post-racial society now and any mention of race, or exclusion of whiteness, is Racism." But actually: “Just as the capitalist system is not a capitalist plot, so racial oppression is not the work of “racists.” It is maintained by the principal institutions of society, including the schools (which define “excellence”), the labor market (which defines “employment”), the legal system (which defines “crime”), the welfare system (which defines “poverty”), the medical industry (which defines “health”), and the family (which defines “kinship”). Many of these institutions are administered by people who would be offended if accused of complicity with racial oppression.” (that's Noel Ignatiev). So, the ultimate solution for those who recognize race as a force of institutional violence and marginalization (rather than an outdated idea, because hey explicitly racist speech and laws are impolite now!) would be to dismantle those exact systems and rebuild without any idea of whiteness at all -- "white skin would have as little social importance as big feet." But if you try to do that, at best you're lonely, and at worst you're killed (Obama can assassinate terrorists on US soil, remember). So Black Girls Code is doing what can be done right now to help a severely marginalized, invisible group (you have to remember the experience of young girls in the US [1][2][3]) get into a field that is basically guaranteed employment if they develop interest and go with it long enough. If you're white, especially a white guy, no one cares about your Very Reasonable And Logical opinion or how this makes you Very Uncomfortable on the Internet. [0] http://www.stanford.edu/group/blackpanthers/programs.shtml http://www.stanford.edu/group/blackpanthers/programs.shtml [1] http://reelgirl.com/2013/11/im-not-a-pilot-im-a-pilots-wife-says-3-yr-old-girl/ http://reelgirl.com/2013/11/im-not-a-pilot-im-a-pilots-wife-... [2] http://www.metafilter.com/121190/teenage-girls-they-havent-been-living-theyve-been-performing http://www.metafilter.com/121190/teenage-girls-they-havent-b... [3] http://sodisarmingdarling.tumblr.com/post/34106027759/what-its-like-being-a-teen-girl http://sodisarmingdarling.tumblr.com/post/34106027759/what-i...
- roycehaynes 13y agoSome of you understand the value of dividing and conquering, which is precisely what Black Girls Code is doing - breaking a problem into a sub-problems until eventually each solution helps solve the bigger problem. The beauty in Black Girls Code is who it chooses to focus on (call it niche market) - Americans who historically have been downtrodden by lack of humanity attention especially in software arena. The "digital divide" is factual and real. Why its important to address can only be understood by those who have insight or live it.
- jseliger 13y agoAs a side note to kn0thing: you should put an e-mail address or some other contact info in your HN profile; I want to send a note about how most nonprofits get funded in the U.S., but there's no contact info available for you.
- kn0thing 13y agoDuly noted. Thanks! (Added)
- dupa99 13y agoI have a serious question: What if title would be "White Girls Code"? Is there going be an outrage in the society? I'm just trying to understand the racial words connotation in USA, just to not make faux pas in the future.
- moron4hire 13y agoThere is a bit of a chicken-or-the-egg issue with these sorts of programs that has always bothered me. I've had some experience with attempts to address diversity in subcultures, and while I agree with the goal, the methods have always rubbed me raw. The problem is, they tend to always be ran by the majority group to try to "give a helping hand" to the minority group. It's kind of a patronizing position. I didn't need a "helping hand" to become a programmer, and women are smart enough that they don't need a "helping hand" either. And they won't want it. Think of it this way. There is an extremely similar situation in teaching, where there aren't a lot of young males going into the field. I have had some interest in becoming a certified teacher, having done some semi-formal class programs of various types, but I know for myself I would never go to a "Get Men to Teach" type of program. I wouldn't want to be treated special. I would just want to go through the normal program and be treated no more differently, either positively or negatively, than anyone else. In addition, a lot of people don't like to be told by outsiders that they're doing something "wrong", or that they should do something differently. Someone coming to a programmer conference and espousing how great it would be if more of us got into teaching is terribly unlikely to be convincing. I think most people are probably like this, and I think that's probably why, after two solid decades of "get more X to Y", we haven't really seen an increase in Xs Ying. And while there is a lot of blame to be placed at the feet of the in-crowd treating the out-crowd poorly, and thus driving them away, I came to a greater realization that the problem was more that the in-crowd just never socializes with the out-crowd, period. I have very few friends who are teachers, but of the few that I have, I know most of their friends are teachers. I have a lot of programmer friends. It goes all the way back to college. I didn't know any teaching students, even though I went to one of the biggest teaching universities in the country, and we tended to have a very dull view of the few we even came into contact with. They tended to have a very dull view of us. The business students were the same. The art students were the same. Hell, even the physics students were the same. We were all compartmentalized from each other in our respective departments. Then you go to work and the programmers are in one cube farm over here, and the accountants are in another, and the designers are separate. We've managed to create a culture that sees the segregation of people by skillset as a natural thing, and never question it. And then you get companies saying "we can't hire qualified female programmers. They just don't apply!". Frankly, I don't think open-application is any sort of reliable way to find a decent employee. The only employees that I've known to stick around for a long time were ones that came with recommendations from current employees. You see it all the time, "the importance of networking". "But we haven't done anything to keep them away!" And that is mostly true (though it is important to recognize that there are several instances where active prejudice is still a problem, I think this is a much bigger problem). But employees are people, and trying to "hire more of <adjective>" is treating them like checkboxes, not people. Well, no wonder you don't see more female programmers, because most existing programmers are already male and they don't socialize with many women, period, say nothing about ones that would be interested in programming. Anyway, my point is, I don't think these sort of "Xs working to get not-Xs to do more Y" are ever going to work, so long as the Xs mostly socialize with Xs. You want to find more black designers? Make more friends of black people. You want to find more female programmers? Make more friends of women. They are out there. While you personally may have not done anything to drive them away, you're also not doing anything to make them a whole part of your life, either. It will always be the case that men will be over represented in programming so long as men are the gate keepers into programming organizations and men do not do more to socialize with women as peers--with the complete reverse situation being true for women and men in teaching. And while you personally didn't ask to be the de facto gate keeper to your industry, the state of things is that you are. Tough shit. Play the hand you're dealt. EDIT: long-story short, "Get more X to Y" is still treating the Xs as "others". These types of programs perpetuate that cycle. The answer is to eliminate the otherness of whatever property we're concerned about today.
- yetanotherphd 13y agoThe one fact we can all agree on is that Black people, and women, are both underrepresented among programmers, and Black people in general economically disadvantaged. My understanding is that this program should be seen in the context of a political movement that sees this under-representation as an example of systematic oppression by a society that privileges White males. This oppression comes in the form of discrimination in employment, unequal access to education, and stereotypes that guide White males towards higher paid careers. The movement sees eliminating this oppression as a very high priority. There are two points where I disagree with this movement. First, there may be explanations of this underrepresentation that are unrelated to oppression. These include lack of interest in programming (due to cultural differences in values), cultural differences in how education is valued, and genetic differences in personality and intelligence. Second, I think that it is natural and inevitable that the majority culture be dominant, and this has social and economic implications. For example, Israel is fundamentally a Jewish nation, and this implies that Jewish values, culture etc. are dominant in that society. While many Israelis explain economic and social inequality in Israel as a result of the backwardness of Muslims, I think the truth is that really this is just another instance of the inevitable trend in societies. So I would like to curb the worst excesses of inequality that result from different races/cultures living together but I do not see inequality as a something terrible that must be eliminated entirely.
- kingkawn 13y agoIt is not helpful to blanket condemn the HN community. Yes, the vast majority are white men. Yes, a significant portion hold political positions on minority peoples that do not take into account the history and structural disadvantages of being both not-white and not-male. But that position is a meaningful way to survive in a system that for hundreds of years would have punished or killed even white men for acknowledging the humanity and difficulties of those peoples. So, while I disagree with them, telling them that they're all assholes is useless. Building equality is not a zero-sum game between those who-have and those who don't. It is the elevation of our collective humanity through empathy.
- detcader 13y agoAlthough you have to realize that there are people who see 'equality' as mythological, based on analyses of gender and race that see them as inherently hierarchical through their social construction (basic reasoning reveals that race isn't just skin color and gender is not sex organs and characteristics). Unfortunately these people are few in number, and they're mostly women and non-white people, so no-one listens to them anyway. If we sympathize with those folks, HN comment threads become even more futile.
- kingkawn 13y agoI understand that it seems like it will magnify the futility, but the way you are describing is the way that has been tried forever. It has resulted in slow change, usually only being realized when society as a whole has been influenced enough to forget the old perspective. There's a lot of power into both taking the full fears of another into consideration while simultaneously trying to present the full fears of their Other to them.
- gdubs 13y agoAnd, perhaps predictably, a noble post falls off the front page as the discussion devolves into a cartoonish dust ball of chest-beating, setting off the flame-war detectors. The girls lose, but thank god the opinionated "experts" on US racial politics have had their moment.
- nicolethenerd 13y agoMy 2 cents (not that anybody asked). I teach computer science at an predominantly black all-girls school in Brooklyn - my students are exactly the demographic that this organization is targeting. And I think its great - the more opportunities we can provide for these girls, the better, and Black Girls Code looks like an organization that has done a lot of good - I'm looking forward to seeing them come to Brooklyn. But the name does bother me a bit, too. Not because 'racism!', but because while it accomplishes the goal of making it clear that this is a safe space for black girls, it raises the question "am I welcome here?" for anyone who isn't black. And a handful of my students aren't black (they're Hispanic) - afaik, they are welcome there too - from the website it looks like Black Girls Code is looking to provide opportunities for all girls of color - but as a teacher, I'd like to be able to just say to my class, "hey, you should all check out this awesome event/opportunity" without it turning into a discussion about race. Plus, I have no idea whether I, as a white woman, would be welcome there as a volunteer? I'm used to being the only white person in a classroom full of students of color - that's not something that's ever been an issue at school - but at a place called Black Girls Code, I'd have to wonder whether my help might not be wanted.