6 ms·

The New Rules of College Sex (2011)

23 points by ash 13y ago

avmich 13y ago
A great law hack, should I say?
- stefantalpalaru 13y ago
  More like a new low in the "fight abuse with abuse" society.
ethanbond 13y ago
Wow, this is disgusting. Make up a fictional scenario as the base against which to measure laws' efficacy? The fact is, not raping someone is pretty easy. It's not difficult to gauge what someone is comfortable with and, if you can't gauge it, simply ask them. They'll actually appreciate it. If they don't, then you dodged a bullet.
- mercer 13y ago
  In an ideal world this would be the case. In my experience, and that of many guys I know, it is not so clear. I'll have to choose my words carefully. 'Not raping someone is pretty easy' in itself is correct. The rest of the paragraph, in my opinion, is simplifying the situation too much. > It's not difficult to gauge what someone is comfortable with Yes, it is. I am pretty good at reading body language. Better than most, I'd say. No worse, at least. And yet I and many of my friends have experienced a number of situations where a girl seemed 'comfortable' but later ended up expressing that she wasn't entirely. This seems to happen too often and with too many different types of people to be just an anomaly, in my view. > and, if you can't gauge it, simply ask them. That assumes that you have a suspicion and that there's no downside to that. It's really, really awkward to constantly ask a girl if whatever you're engaged in 'is okay' if it all seems okay. Not only can it actively curb any positive sexual energy in the situation, it's a bit odd to have to do this to begin with. > They'll actually appreciate it. If they don't, then you dodged a bullet. I think every single one of my female friends has, in moments of unguarded conversation, expressed a dislike of a guy constantly asking 'approval', and a strong fantasy about a guy 'taking charge'. Now, that said, a number of my friends (including myself) have 'dodged bullets' with girls who seemed completely up for sex, but after repeated inquiry 'weren't really that into it'. The bullet that we dodged was the girl feeling shit about it the next day (at the very least). None of us want to be the guy that makes a girl feel violated (or at least shit about what happened), but on the other hand we also want to engage in sex and are actively taught that girls like us to take initiative and charge. It's a difficult issue. My optimal solution is just err on the side of caution, and, as you say, 'just ask', and ask all the time. I wish it wasn't necessary, but it seems that in the current sexual landscape there are still many more cases were a woman feels like she was pushed too far, compared to men (although I have actually had this experience). So in that sense I agree with your approach. But it's not as simple as you make it out to be. Sexuality and male-female interaction rarely is.
  - ethanbond 13y ago
    I agree with everything that you're saying, but my concern is making these constant half-excuses and concluding it with "but yeah you do have to ask." The beginning and end of the story is that if you're unsure, you have to ask. It may be a little awkward, it may not get her riled up/keep the momentum, but these arguments can be used against MOST responsible decision-making processes. "I don't want to stop at this yellow light because I'm so in the moment!" "I should double-check what that person ordered so I don't cook the wrong thing." Awkward-fuck-up-the-moment things are generally good ideas. In the case of sexual interaction, the stakes are far, far, far too high to make half-excuses. I think that's also a huge misapplication of the "taking charge" fantasy which is, as you say, very common. Toeing the line between forced and forceful is something that requires trust. If you're uncertain about what you're doing, then you probably don't have the requisite trust built yet. Avoid it. I agree with your conclusion and your arguments, but I'm very very hesitant to make any arguments or caveats that may weaken the case of caution for those kind of on the fence on the topic.
    - mercer 13y ago
      > I agree with your conclusion and your arguments, but I'm very very hesitant to make any arguments or caveats that may weaken the case of caution for those kind of on the fence on the topic. Excellent point. I did not mean my post as a bunch excuses, but I do see that even if I don't, others might, and that this might be reason enough to avoid nuance. What I forgot to mention though, is that everything I said pretty much exclusively applies to casual sex. Pointing out the complications in that scenario might prompt others to realize the risks involved (not even considering legal issues), and communicate more clearly. I think too many people, especially college-age, forget that sex didn't just magically become 'casual'. We're in a strange period in time where many sexual 'rules' are upended, and the resulting confusion should not be treated too 'casually'. Many conversations I've had with both men and women indicate that there are a lot of misconceptions, and that there can be a lot of pain involved.
bonemachine 13y ago
TL;DR I give up -- so if Diane started out, as the article says, by "pre-gaming" i.e. drinking a few shots before the party, and overtly initiating the sexual aspect of their interaction by grabbing Jack's crotch, why is it that Jack is presumed to be the one who created a "hostile environment"?
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]

23 points by ash 13y ago

avmich 13y ago

A great law hack, should I say?

stefantalpalaru 13y ago
More like a new low in the "fight abuse with abuse" society.

ethanbond 13y ago

Wow, this is disgusting. Make up a fictional scenario as the base against which to measure laws' efficacy? The fact is, not raping someone is pretty easy. It's not difficult to gauge what someone is comfortable with and, if you can't gauge it, simply ask them. They'll actually appreciate it. If they don't, then you dodged a bullet.

mercer 13y ago
In an ideal world this would be the case. In my experience, and that of many guys I know, it is not so clear. I'll have to choose my words carefully. 'Not raping someone is pretty easy' in itself is correct. The rest of the paragraph, in my opinion, is simplifying the situation too much. > It's not difficult to gauge what someone is comfortable with Yes, it is. I am pretty good at reading body language. Better than most, I'd say. No worse, at least. And yet I and many of my friends have experienced a number of situations where a girl seemed 'comfortable' but later ended up expressing that she wasn't entirely. This seems to happen too often and with too many different types of people to be just an anomaly, in my view. > and, if you can't gauge it, simply ask them. That assumes that you have a suspicion and that there's no downside to that. It's really, really awkward to constantly ask a girl if whatever you're engaged in 'is okay' if it all seems okay. Not only can it actively curb any positive sexual energy in the situation, it's a bit odd to have to do this to begin with. > They'll actually appreciate it. If they don't, then you dodged a bullet. I think every single one of my female friends has, in moments of unguarded conversation, expressed a dislike of a guy constantly asking 'approval', and a strong fantasy about a guy 'taking charge'. Now, that said, a number of my friends (including myself) have 'dodged bullets' with girls who seemed completely up for sex, but after repeated inquiry 'weren't really that into it'. The bullet that we dodged was the girl feeling shit about it the next day (at the very least). None of us want to be the guy that makes a girl feel violated (or at least shit about what happened), but on the other hand we also want to engage in sex and are actively taught that girls like us to take initiative and charge. It's a difficult issue. My optimal solution is just err on the side of caution, and, as you say, 'just ask', and ask all the time. I wish it wasn't necessary, but it seems that in the current sexual landscape there are still many more cases were a woman feels like she was pushed too far, compared to men (although I have actually had this experience). So in that sense I agree with your approach. But it's not as simple as you make it out to be. Sexuality and male-female interaction rarely is.
- ethanbond 13y ago
  I agree with everything that you're saying, but my concern is making these constant half-excuses and concluding it with "but yeah you do have to ask." The beginning and end of the story is that if you're unsure, you have to ask. It may be a little awkward, it may not get her riled up/keep the momentum, but these arguments can be used against MOST responsible decision-making processes. "I don't want to stop at this yellow light because I'm so in the moment!" "I should double-check what that person ordered so I don't cook the wrong thing." Awkward-fuck-up-the-moment things are generally good ideas. In the case of sexual interaction, the stakes are far, far, far too high to make half-excuses. I think that's also a huge misapplication of the "taking charge" fantasy which is, as you say, very common. Toeing the line between forced and forceful is something that requires trust. If you're uncertain about what you're doing, then you probably don't have the requisite trust built yet. Avoid it. I agree with your conclusion and your arguments, but I'm very very hesitant to make any arguments or caveats that may weaken the case of caution for those kind of on the fence on the topic.
  - mercer 13y ago
    > I agree with your conclusion and your arguments, but I'm very very hesitant to make any arguments or caveats that may weaken the case of caution for those kind of on the fence on the topic. Excellent point. I did not mean my post as a bunch excuses, but I do see that even if I don't, others might, and that this might be reason enough to avoid nuance. What I forgot to mention though, is that everything I said pretty much exclusively applies to casual sex. Pointing out the complications in that scenario might prompt others to realize the risks involved (not even considering legal issues), and communicate more clearly. I think too many people, especially college-age, forget that sex didn't just magically become 'casual'. We're in a strange period in time where many sexual 'rules' are upended, and the resulting confusion should not be treated too 'casually'. Many conversations I've had with both men and women indicate that there are a lot of misconceptions, and that there can be a lot of pain involved.

bonemachine 13y ago

TL;DR I give up -- so if Diane started out, as the article says, by "pre-gaming" i.e. drinking a few shots before the party, and overtly initiating the sexual aspect of their interaction by grabbing Jack's crotch, why is it that Jack is presumed to be the one who created a "hostile environment"?

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]