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>>> When the Egyptian army which is baked by the US government launched a coupe against a democratically elected president. Is it just me or has the US foreign

>>> When the Egyptian army which is baked by the US government launched a coupe against a democratically elected president. Is it just me or has the US foreign policy been upside down the last 5-8 years??

dragonwriter 13y ago
> Is it just me or has the US foreign policy been upside down the last 5-8 years?? If you think opposing democratizing movements in areas where Islamist movements are popular favor of friendly authoritarians is upside down, then, even if you are just talking about Middle East policy, its pretty crazy to say that's a distinct feature of the last 5-8 years.
- mikeash 13y ago
  For example, we were great buddies with Mubarak for a couple of decades before he was deposed. And that's just one tiny example. US foreign policy is frequently, well, evil. Edit: OK, I'm not normally one to complain or even care about downvotes, but really? At least reply to explain your disagreement. Do you disagree that we were friends with Mubarak for decades before he was overthrown? Do you disagree that we have routinely and for ages propped up evil dictatorships in other countries, or even overthrown democratic governments and replaced them with dictatorships?
InclinedPlane 13y ago
Geopolitics is complicated, now as much as any time in history. The US has been doing "OK" with regard to Egypt lately but there's really no good way to handle what's going on there. On the face of it Morsi was democratically elected but he also gave himself unlimited powers and was on his way to becoming just as much a tyrant as Mubarak ever was. He was deposed by a military coup which has its own problems and now Egypt is devolving into what seems to be an inevitable sectarian war (just as is happening in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and Pakistan/Afghanistan). Calling the Egyptian army "backed by the US government" is a bit of a stretch. Prior to the coup the US shipped 12 F-16 fighters and millions in aid to Egypt under Morsi, since the coup the US has delayed further scheduled deliveries of F-16s and aid, largely as a protest for the harsh actions of the government against dissident groups. Nevertheless, there isn't exactly a good side to back in Egypt at present. It's not as though there's a nice, peaceful secular organization dedicated to democracy and individual liberty just quietly growing in the shadows. Instead there are a bunch of folks who want to seize power to further their own interests. Removing Qaddafi in Libya was almost certainly a good move though the followup there has been lacking. And the failure to engage in a meaningful way in the middle east in general has been frustrating. It's a hard problem, but sitting back and fucking around when there's serious shit going down isn't really the best alternative. The middle east is going to be hugely different over the next decade, but how much influence the US will have over that shape (to guide it away from islamic fundamentalism and totalitarianism specifically) is very much in doubt at present.
- pessimizer 13y ago
  >Calling the Egyptian army "backed by the US government" is a bit of a stretch No, it's literally true. Although I've heard that an end to US military aid to Egypt would simply mean an end to US influence in Egypt, as they could easily secure support elsewhere without the restrictions that the US imposes on who they can deal with. >It's not as though there's a nice, peaceful secular organization dedicated to democracy and individual liberty just quietly growing in the shadows. This is the result of US support to the Egyptian government. As elsewhere in the Middle East, the US propped up a dictator and assisted him in exterminating all secular opposition. There's no way to do that to the religious opposition, so when the dictator leaves, all you have to fill the vacuum are fundamentalists.
  - InclinedPlane 13y ago
    The idea that the current Egyptian regime is "US backed" or that it is significantly more "US backed" than Morsi's regime, is frankly not supported by reality. US support for Mubarak's regime was always problematic but it was theoretically in service to the greater good of maintaining peace between Egypt and Israel (which lasted for decades). When Mubarak started murdering protesters the support of the US government for him evaporated rather quickly.
deleted 13y ago
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dragonwriter 13y ago

> Is it just me or has the US foreign policy been upside down the last 5-8 years?? If you think opposing democratizing movements in areas where Islamist movements are popular favor of friendly authoritarians is upside down, then, even if you are just talking about Middle East policy, its pretty crazy to say that's a distinct feature of the last 5-8 years.

mikeash 13y ago
For example, we were great buddies with Mubarak for a couple of decades before he was deposed. And that's just one tiny example. US foreign policy is frequently, well, evil. Edit: OK, I'm not normally one to complain or even care about downvotes, but really? At least reply to explain your disagreement. Do you disagree that we were friends with Mubarak for decades before he was overthrown? Do you disagree that we have routinely and for ages propped up evil dictatorships in other countries, or even overthrown democratic governments and replaced them with dictatorships?

InclinedPlane 13y ago

Geopolitics is complicated, now as much as any time in history. The US has been doing "OK" with regard to Egypt lately but there's really no good way to handle what's going on there. On the face of it Morsi was democratically elected but he also gave himself unlimited powers and was on his way to becoming just as much a tyrant as Mubarak ever was. He was deposed by a military coup which has its own problems and now Egypt is devolving into what seems to be an inevitable sectarian war (just as is happening in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and Pakistan/Afghanistan). Calling the Egyptian army "backed by the US government" is a bit of a stretch. Prior to the coup the US shipped 12 F-16 fighters and millions in aid to Egypt under Morsi, since the coup the US has delayed further scheduled deliveries of F-16s and aid, largely as a protest for the harsh actions of the government against dissident groups. Nevertheless, there isn't exactly a good side to back in Egypt at present. It's not as though there's a nice, peaceful secular organization dedicated to democracy and individual liberty just quietly growing in the shadows. Instead there are a bunch of folks who want to seize power to further their own interests. Removing Qaddafi in Libya was almost certainly a good move though the followup there has been lacking. And the failure to engage in a meaningful way in the middle east in general has been frustrating. It's a hard problem, but sitting back and fucking around when there's serious shit going down isn't really the best alternative. The middle east is going to be hugely different over the next decade, but how much influence the US will have over that shape (to guide it away from islamic fundamentalism and totalitarianism specifically) is very much in doubt at present.

pessimizer 13y ago
>Calling the Egyptian army "backed by the US government" is a bit of a stretch No, it's literally true. Although I've heard that an end to US military aid to Egypt would simply mean an end to US influence in Egypt, as they could easily secure support elsewhere without the restrictions that the US imposes on who they can deal with. >It's not as though there's a nice, peaceful secular organization dedicated to democracy and individual liberty just quietly growing in the shadows. This is the result of US support to the Egyptian government. As elsewhere in the Middle East, the US propped up a dictator and assisted him in exterminating all secular opposition. There's no way to do that to the religious opposition, so when the dictator leaves, all you have to fill the vacuum are fundamentalists.
- InclinedPlane 13y ago
  The idea that the current Egyptian regime is "US backed" or that it is significantly more "US backed" than Morsi's regime, is frankly not supported by reality. US support for Mubarak's regime was always problematic but it was theoretically in service to the greater good of maintaining peace between Egypt and Israel (which lasted for decades). When Mubarak started murdering protesters the support of the US government for him evaporated rather quickly.

deleted 13y ago

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