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The challenge is how they'll be able to teach folks computer science, when they fail to teach them basic reading and math. The AP Computer Science class I took

The challenge is how they'll be able to teach folks computer science, when they fail to teach them basic reading and math. The AP Computer Science class I took was close enough to first year coursework that they let me pass out of it. The biggest benefit was having a very serious teacher whose goal in life was that class. (He taught others, but his main focus as a teacher was the top 2-3% of programmers in the student body) It was a course that's both rigorous and useful.

belluchan 13y ago
> The challenge is how they'll be able to teach folks computer science, when they fail to teach them basic reading and math. And where are the schools failing at basic reading and math? I doubt that if there are students who fail at this that they would make it into this program. My guess is that it's not the schools that are failing children, it's the parents. I know that doesn't ring nicely with the easy to blame "school" blame the "government" all that other libertarian thoughtless unfortunate stuff that's in people's heads, but there you go.
droopyEyelids 13y ago
> The challenge is how they'll be able to teach folks computer science, when they fail to teach them basic reading and math This is another form of the "How dare you make a social app when people starve in Africa" objection. Just in case anyone still feels like it makes sense, be aware of the gross oversimplification it entails. Actually only some students fail to acquire basic reading and math skills, while another group isn't provided with ample opportunity to take their ability to learn to its full extent. Giving schools the opportunity to add CS as core subject allows schools to offer good students a broader education, and provides an opportunity to capture a larger percent of otherwise disinterested students' attention.
- mathattack 13y ago
  Fair enough. I'm not that extreme, and I get that schools need to offer students the best in education. But many of these schools in question are failing enormous quantities of students. The school my kids are zoned for (public, not in Chicago) has 85% of the kids failing state exams, with half getting the lowest score possible. They're investing millions of dollars in trips to the museums and other "magnet" activities, while they can't provide even a basic education.
jseliger 13y ago
The challenge is how they'll be able to teach folks computer science, when they fail to teach them basic reading and math. The other problem may be salary. Years ago I was looking at teacher salaries for Seattle public schools. Salaries were identical for all subjects and increased only with length of time as a teacher and advanced degrees. They started around $30K with a BA and $36K with an MA. Pay topped out after 30 years at $60 or $70K-ish. You're just not going to get many competent CS people for that kind of pay. Yeah, a couple of hero teachers will show up, but for the most part you're going to get shortages. Based on the reading I assembled here: http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/susan-engel-doesnt-get-2/ http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/susan-engel-doesnt-... , I'm skeptical that we're going to see much improvement in public schools, and especially urban public schools, until we deal with the teacher union issue. Unions enforce lockstep payscales.
- krakensden 13y ago
  My SO is a teacher. We have a similar amount of experience, my partner has more degrees. I make exactly twice as much money. It's not like I'm working harder or what I'm doing is more important. You just can't convince Americans to spend money on public schools.
  - yummyfajitas 13y ago
    The marginal product of your work is higher. The amount of money you make is proportional to how much value would not be produced if you were to quit. To copy an older explanation I wrote: Consider a very important profession, say superhero. Having one superhero to stop the Joker is worth $1M. Having two superheros is worth $1.1M - Batman is sufficient to stop the very dangerous Joker, but two superheros can stop both the Joker and the far less dangerous Harleyquinn. The marginal productivity of an extra superhero is $100k even if the mean productivity is $550k. As a result, superheros get paid $100k because if any superhero quits, society loses only $100k rather than $550k. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6846579 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6846579
    - mathattack 13y ago
wisty 13y ago
Anyone with a math or physics degree in the last 20 years should be able to learn basic programming. Of course, those are the teachers who are already in short supply.
auctiontheory 13y ago
I tutor math at a local high school. The core problem, at least as far as I can understand it, is the students' lack of motivation - learning math is way down their priority list. (The material is basic, and the students appear to be of normal intelligence. There's no reason they couldn't grok this stuff.) The great thing about CS, at least if it's well taught, is that you can see results. You can think hard, figure something out, and see visible results from your effort. I think/hope that this can be a powerful motivator for a 14-year-old to think analytically - in a way that solving algebra problems isn't.

belluchan 13y ago

> The challenge is how they'll be able to teach folks computer science, when they fail to teach them basic reading and math. And where are the schools failing at basic reading and math? I doubt that if there are students who fail at this that they would make it into this program. My guess is that it's not the schools that are failing children, it's the parents. I know that doesn't ring nicely with the easy to blame "school" blame the "government" all that other libertarian thoughtless unfortunate stuff that's in people's heads, but there you go.

droopyEyelids 13y ago

> The challenge is how they'll be able to teach folks computer science, when they fail to teach them basic reading and math This is another form of the "How dare you make a social app when people starve in Africa" objection. Just in case anyone still feels like it makes sense, be aware of the gross oversimplification it entails. Actually only some students fail to acquire basic reading and math skills, while another group isn't provided with ample opportunity to take their ability to learn to its full extent. Giving schools the opportunity to add CS as core subject allows schools to offer good students a broader education, and provides an opportunity to capture a larger percent of otherwise disinterested students' attention.

mathattack 13y ago
Fair enough. I'm not that extreme, and I get that schools need to offer students the best in education. But many of these schools in question are failing enormous quantities of students. The school my kids are zoned for (public, not in Chicago) has 85% of the kids failing state exams, with half getting the lowest score possible. They're investing millions of dollars in trips to the museums and other "magnet" activities, while they can't provide even a basic education.

jseliger 13y ago

The challenge is how they'll be able to teach folks computer science, when they fail to teach them basic reading and math. The other problem may be salary. Years ago I was looking at teacher salaries for Seattle public schools. Salaries were identical for all subjects and increased only with length of time as a teacher and advanced degrees. They started around $30K with a BA and $36K with an MA. Pay topped out after 30 years at $60 or $70K-ish. You're just not going to get many competent CS people for that kind of pay. Yeah, a couple of hero teachers will show up, but for the most part you're going to get shortages. Based on the reading I assembled here: http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/susan-engel-doesnt-get-2/ http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/susan-engel-doesnt-... , I'm skeptical that we're going to see much improvement in public schools, and especially urban public schools, until we deal with the teacher union issue. Unions enforce lockstep payscales.

krakensden 13y ago
My SO is a teacher. We have a similar amount of experience, my partner has more degrees. I make exactly twice as much money. It's not like I'm working harder or what I'm doing is more important. You just can't convince Americans to spend money on public schools.
- yummyfajitas 13y ago
  The marginal product of your work is higher. The amount of money you make is proportional to how much value would not be produced if you were to quit. To copy an older explanation I wrote: Consider a very important profession, say superhero. Having one superhero to stop the Joker is worth $1M. Having two superheros is worth $1.1M - Batman is sufficient to stop the very dangerous Joker, but two superheros can stop both the Joker and the far less dangerous Harleyquinn. The marginal productivity of an extra superhero is $100k even if the mean productivity is $550k. As a result, superheros get paid $100k because if any superhero quits, society loses only $100k rather than $550k. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6846579 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6846579
  - mathattack 13y ago

wisty 13y ago

Anyone with a math or physics degree in the last 20 years should be able to learn basic programming. Of course, those are the teachers who are already in short supply.

auctiontheory 13y ago

I tutor math at a local high school. The core problem, at least as far as I can understand it, is the students' lack of motivation - learning math is way down their priority list. (The material is basic, and the students appear to be of normal intelligence. There's no reason they couldn't grok this stuff.) The great thing about CS, at least if it's well taught, is that you can see results. You can think hard, figure something out, and see visible results from your effort. I think/hope that this can be a powerful motivator for a 14-year-old to think analytically - in a way that solving algebra problems isn't.