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It's remarkable how different cities have such radically different approaches and attitudes toward pedestrians. More so how drivers - on the whole - have this a

by nlh 13y ago

It's remarkable how different cities have such radically different approaches and attitudes toward pedestrians. More so how drivers - on the whole - have this almost ESP-like ability to share a common like or dislike. One of the most (pleasantly) jarring things I noticed about my move from NYC to SF is how totally dominant pedestrians are in SF, how totally deferential drivers are to pedestrians, and frankly how polite drivers are to each other. SF is filled with 4-way stop signs, and there's a very efficient (unspoken) system of coordinating who goes when (based on arrival time at the stop sign). If you dare break the system, you get yelled (honked) at mercilessly. As a pedestrian in SF, I sometimes have to insist that cars go ahead (I'm rarely in a rush when I'm walking, and I know how frustrating it can be as a driver to wait for a slow person to meander across the street). You need to do nothing more than approach a crosswalk and every car in every direction will stop and wait for you to cross -- people even insist that you cross and will stop their cars while in mid-turn. I find that sometimes ill have to actually walk away from the curb if I'm waiting for someone or not actually crossing yet, otherwise I impede traffic. It's pretty cool. I spent a weekend in New Orleans recently, and one of the first things I noticed was the complete lack of that pedestrian deference. Step in the street at a crosswalk and cars will rush to get through before you start crossing. I guess that's what they mean when they say "Live in Northern California, but leave before you get soft" ;)

PeterWhittaker 13y ago
> a very efficient (unspoken) system of coordinating who goes when > approach a crosswalk and every car in every direction will stop and wait for you to cross I confess to being baffled by these quotes: Are these not the law? In every province in which I've lived, the rules for stop signs are simple: First in, first out. In case of multiple simultaneous arrivals, vehicle on the right has right of way. Only pathological case is a multi-road intersection with perfectly equal spacing between roads, e.g., four-way intersection of two perpendicular roads - the drivers have to sort something out, but it's such a rare case it's not worth solving. That regulation works just as well for large intersections when then the lights are out: As you arrive, take note of who else is already there - you have right of way when they are all gone, everyone else has to wait for you. That regulation is observed in Ontario, NB, NS, PEI, and, to a lesser or greater extent, Quebec (highway regs are provincial, but we're pretty consistent on many sensible points). Likewise, pedestrians have absolute right of way wherever they are permitted to be. That is less observed, especially in bigger cities in Ontario and especially in Quebec, but is strictly observed in the Maritimes: Popup from between parked cars in Wolfville - or even Saint John, on many streets - and traffic halts for you.
- obelos 13y ago
  FIFO is typically perceived to be the case, but technically the law in many locales actually states that each driver yield to the right. The distance at which a car is to be included as “at” the intersection is a little fuzzy, so in practice it often looks like FIFO.
  - mikestew 13y ago
    Of the three states I've lived in (IN, NC, WA) the law has been FIFO. The tie-breaker for two cars arriving at the intersection (defined as coming to a complete stop) at the same time is "yield to the right" as you note. Are you sure you're not confusing the latter with the general law? Laws seldom have any piece that is "a little fuzzy" and are generally well defined.
    - endersshadow 13y ago
      This thread is making me seriously concerned. Do this many people just not know basic traffic laws?
      - orclev 13y ago
        Based on observations driving around my city for the last 10 years or so... yes. Occasionally you'll even run into people who don't bother stopping at stop signs if they're turning, and god help you if the light is out. You'll sometimes also run into people who think that so long as they've stopped at the sign and at least one other person has gone then they have right of way no matter if there were others already waiting when they got there.
      - mikestew 13y ago
        When's the last time you took a driving test of any sort (assuming you live in the US)? I've lived in WA for 13 years. I took the "written" (scare quotes because it was computerized) test to get my WA license when I moved here, and took the eye "exam" (scare quotes because how bad would your eyes have to be to fail?). In the 13 years since, I've had my eyes tested exactly once at the DMV. No written tests since, so I could forget or misremember a lot in those 13 years. The last time anyone has tested my abilities behind the wheel can be measured in decades. It's a wonder we're not plowing into each other more often.
endersshadow 13y ago
The way they deal with 4-way stop signs isn't "unspoken," it's the frigging law [1]. That law is exactly the same as every other state. This stuff is covered day one of driver's ed. If you "break the system," you're breaking the law and deserve a ticket, not just honking. Moreover, the same deference can also be seen in Boston, which is a very walkable city. Although jaywalking is very common in Boston. New Orleans is a completely different city--only a small section of it has significant pedestrian traffic, and that section is often closed off to cars, anyway. [1] http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=veh&group=21001-22000&file=21800-21809 http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=veh&gr...
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  Makes you wonder, that your parent didn't know it is the law. Makes you wonder how many rules of the road are not known to be law, and mostly just followed out of social enforcement?
- vampirechicken 13y ago
  In Ohio, the law at a four-way stop is: one car, rotating clockwise around the intersection. NOT whoever got there first.
melling 13y ago
I got stopped for jaywalking in Munich, Germany. It was a single lane street, and not a very wide one. Everyone else was waiting at the light. The cop ran my passport then let me go after a few minutes.
brazzy 13y ago
> It's remarkable how different cities have such radically different approaches and attitudes toward pedestrians. I think there's a blog article from Raymond Chen where he notes how the LA concert hall building is totally designed for people arriving from the underground parking lot, and claims that the minimum number of parking slots required for such a building by regulations in LA are higher than the maximum permitted by regulations in NYC...

by nlh 13y ago

PeterWhittaker 13y ago

> a very efficient (unspoken) system of coordinating who goes when > approach a crosswalk and every car in every direction will stop and wait for you to cross I confess to being baffled by these quotes: Are these not the law? In every province in which I've lived, the rules for stop signs are simple: First in, first out. In case of multiple simultaneous arrivals, vehicle on the right has right of way. Only pathological case is a multi-road intersection with perfectly equal spacing between roads, e.g., four-way intersection of two perpendicular roads - the drivers have to sort something out, but it's such a rare case it's not worth solving. That regulation works just as well for large intersections when then the lights are out: As you arrive, take note of who else is already there - you have right of way when they are all gone, everyone else has to wait for you. That regulation is observed in Ontario, NB, NS, PEI, and, to a lesser or greater extent, Quebec (highway regs are provincial, but we're pretty consistent on many sensible points). Likewise, pedestrians have absolute right of way wherever they are permitted to be. That is less observed, especially in bigger cities in Ontario and especially in Quebec, but is strictly observed in the Maritimes: Popup from between parked cars in Wolfville - or even Saint John, on many streets - and traffic halts for you.

obelos 13y ago
FIFO is typically perceived to be the case, but technically the law in many locales actually states that each driver yield to the right. The distance at which a car is to be included as “at” the intersection is a little fuzzy, so in practice it often looks like FIFO.
- mikestew 13y ago
  Of the three states I've lived in (IN, NC, WA) the law has been FIFO. The tie-breaker for two cars arriving at the intersection (defined as coming to a complete stop) at the same time is "yield to the right" as you note. Are you sure you're not confusing the latter with the general law? Laws seldom have any piece that is "a little fuzzy" and are generally well defined.
  - endersshadow 13y ago
    This thread is making me seriously concerned. Do this many people just not know basic traffic laws?
    - orclev 13y ago
      Based on observations driving around my city for the last 10 years or so... yes. Occasionally you'll even run into people who don't bother stopping at stop signs if they're turning, and god help you if the light is out. You'll sometimes also run into people who think that so long as they've stopped at the sign and at least one other person has gone then they have right of way no matter if there were others already waiting when they got there.
    - mikestew 13y ago
      When's the last time you took a driving test of any sort (assuming you live in the US)? I've lived in WA for 13 years. I took the "written" (scare quotes because it was computerized) test to get my WA license when I moved here, and took the eye "exam" (scare quotes because how bad would your eyes have to be to fail?). In the 13 years since, I've had my eyes tested exactly once at the DMV. No written tests since, so I could forget or misremember a lot in those 13 years. The last time anyone has tested my abilities behind the wheel can be measured in decades. It's a wonder we're not plowing into each other more often.

endersshadow 13y ago

The way they deal with 4-way stop signs isn't "unspoken," it's the frigging law [1]. That law is exactly the same as every other state. This stuff is covered day one of driver's ed. If you "break the system," you're breaking the law and deserve a ticket, not just honking. Moreover, the same deference can also be seen in Boston, which is a very walkable city. Although jaywalking is very common in Boston. New Orleans is a completely different city--only a small section of it has significant pedestrian traffic, and that section is often closed off to cars, anyway. [1] http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=veh&group=21001-22000&file=21800-21809 http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=veh&gr...

sliverstorm 13y ago
Makes you wonder, that your parent didn't know it is the law. Makes you wonder how many rules of the road are not known to be law, and mostly just followed out of social enforcement?
vampirechicken 13y ago
In Ohio, the law at a four-way stop is: one car, rotating clockwise around the intersection. NOT whoever got there first.

melling 13y ago

I got stopped for jaywalking in Munich, Germany. It was a single lane street, and not a very wide one. Everyone else was waiting at the light. The cop ran my passport then let me go after a few minutes.

brazzy 13y ago

> It's remarkable how different cities have such radically different approaches and attitudes toward pedestrians. I think there's a blog article from Raymond Chen where he notes how the LA concert hall building is totally designed for people arriving from the underground parking lot, and claims that the minimum number of parking slots required for such a building by regulations in LA are higher than the maximum permitted by regulations in NYC...