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Google Destroys Rap Genius’ Search Result Rankings As Punishment For SEO Spam

111 points by acremades 13y ago

loceng 13y ago
They got greedy is all that happened. They were essentially at the top - but wanted to take the whole pie for themselves, instead of perhaps naturally getting there.
ihatehandles 13y ago
Rules are rules, but do they deserve a pardon?
- octatone2 13y ago
  No.
  - ihatehandles 13y ago
    Yeah I guess you're right. Rap Genius' well-known brand aside, if they treat them differently to how they would penalize an unknown tiny site then that's a can of worms they won't be able to rid themselves of.
moocowduckquack 13y ago
Now RapGenius.com doesn’t appear on the first page of results for a search of “Rap Genius” Readjusting their rankings is one thing, but that is just google breaking their own service. If people have typed "rap genius" into google, there is a reasonable chance that they might want to get to the thing named "rap genius", which is on page 5 in the search I just did. And the thing is, that nearly all the rest of the results are not for rap geniuses, which presumably would be another reason for searching the term, but are just blogs and news sites reporting about the company Rap Genius. edit - Given that the public are fairly ambivalent about google and so are not likely to take google's side too much in stuff like this, and if you can get your rating fixed afterward by being nice, couldn't a public spat with google like this actually be good publicity, compared to google not making that much of a fuss and merely adjusting their rankings to adjust for the seo tactics used, rather than acting punitively. If I was looking at this as a marketing droid, all I would see is that google have replaced the position my main site used to take, with loads of articles about my company that then link to my site, which makes it look as though loads of folk are interested in the company while Google are publicly burying the link, which sparks people's curiousity. Is not that I think gaming the ranking is particularly good business practice, I just don't think this is particularly good tactics on google's part.
- llamataboot 13y ago
  No, this is google enforcing a harsh penalty for one site to discourage other people from trying to game search which basically makes us all suffer through content farm links, etc.
  - HelloMcFly 13y ago
    I don't agree. I see the need for punishment of this kind of behavior, but removing the site from a Google search that seems to specifically be looking for that site is a bridge too far in my book.
    - llamataboot 13y ago
      It's pretty much the standard harsh google slapdown. Has happened to many other sites. I imagine they'll get out of jail sooner rather than later. It's meant as a punishment I think, not just a correction of the terms that they ranked for unethically.
minimaxir 13y ago
NOTE: There is an update not in the original report, apparently RG is working with Google to resolve the issue: We are working with Google right now to resolve this. They’ve been really great, helping us identify changes we need to make, even on Christmas. We’re working on it as fast as we can, and expect to be back on Google very soon. It sucks to be off Google for us and for the thousands of our community members who have worked so hard to create what’s often the best search result. We hope everyone who reads this will take a little time out from their Christmas and head to Rap Genius and sign up so you can contribute your knowledge on your favorite subjects – becoming a member of our community makes the site way more fun. Merry Christmas
- itsprofitbaron 13y ago
  By working with Google they mean they're going to work with them to identify the links they need to clean up, try and get those links "cleaned up" themselves, submit a disavow file and then get them to reconsider the site as outlined here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6963785 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6963785 It happens all the time and no disrespect to RapGenius, to companies much bigger than them.
  - walshemj 13y ago
    And for far less reason.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
ColinWright 13y ago
Main discussion is over here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6963365 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6963365 Adding to the discussion here will probably just duplicate what's being said over there.
flexie 13y ago
Still, the real story here is that almost all small businesses depend on the mercy of one giant corporation. This Google monstrosity / police man should be split up into smaller, competing search engines.
- sanswork 13y ago
  You realize the impossibility of this and this is a joke comment right?
  - glesica 13y ago
    The suggested solution may have been a joke (although it is not without precedent) but the analysis was spot-on IMHO.
- JHSheridan 13y ago
  Ever heard of Bing, DuckDuckGo, Yahoo, etc.? Google just does it better than anyone else at the moment. Now I'm not saying Google doesn't have a de facto monopoly, but I'm wary of anyone who says a private company should be forced to split. Should they be punished for being the most popular?
  - fleitz 13y ago
    Good thing google is public rather than private.
    - JHSheridan 13y ago
      Do I need to explain how a publicly traded company is still private, or are you just being purposely obtuse?
      - walshemj 13y ago
        Look at Googles multi class share structure and ask that Q again.
benguild 13y ago
It's probably a temporary ban that will last up to 90 days once appealed.
- bobbyi_settv 13y ago
  What grounds would they have for appealing? They haven't denied the original email posted was authentic. It seems to be black and white that they were engaging in blackhat SEO.
- cabbeer 13y ago
  30 days.
  - bhartzer 13y ago
    Here generally is not a timeframe involved in this. Is google penalized them then they received a manual penalty for unnatural links. They will have to identify all the links that are unnatural, contact all those site owners and try to take get the links taken down. Or disavow them and show a huge effort was made... And tell google that they won't do it again through a reconsideration request. Unless google makes an exception, it is taking at least five days or more for google to respond to RRs. And even then, once a penalty is lifted, the site won't necessarily come back quickly.
znowi 13y ago
We are working with Google right now to resolve this. They’ve been really great, helping us identify changes we need to make. As if they don't know what they did. These guys are toxic. I'd ban them for a year.
- olalonde 13y ago
  [...] to create what’s often the best search result. Poor them, they created the best lyrics site in the world, they deserve to be the first search result! /sarcasm
- yeukhon 13y ago
  Give them the credit for trying to resolve a problem. Are you telling me if you run a business you would never this kind of mistake? It is a good idea to explain why they did it and what they were thinking, instead of just say "damn I screwed up." I rather hear people explain to me why they did it and they now think they screw up. It is part of resolution. If you don't care about explanation (or excuse if you think that's the right erm), well, fine.
  - chrismcb 13y ago
    Wasn't the first thing they said was "damn we screwed up" AND "everyone else does it?"
  - ryanhuff 13y ago
    What company leadership allowed to happen shows a real disrespect for one of the primary risks to the business. Without having the explanation that you described, the two most likely explanations in my mind are either this was standard practice all along (finally got caught), or somebody made one of those epic fail business decisions. If its #1, I doubt we'll see a clear explanation. If its #2, somebody may have to fall on the sword as the "poster child" of bad business decisions.
  - JoachimSchipper 13y ago
    > Are you telling me if you run a business you would never this kind of mistake? It's not that hard to, you know, not spam.
coin 13y ago
Article content is interesting. But -1 for disabling pinchzoom, as it severely impacts usability on mobile devices.
sixQuarks 13y ago
my first instinct is to hate these guys, probably because I feel they are just doing an act. But going beyond my initial kneejerk reaction, I do have to admit they are doing something different (as far as their "act" goes). Game changers almost never go with the flow, so whether you hate them or love them, at least they're not following the crowds.
benched 13y ago
So, the best lyric site by a mile no longer shows up in ordinary Google lyric searches. As a music fanatic, searching lyrics is something I do all day long every day, by the way - and when I search lyrics in Google, I really want to go to rap genius. Anyway, supposedly this degradation of Google had to happen to make a public example, and most of us are ok with it because the founders of RG are known to be kind of jerky and unprofessional, and we loves professionalism cause the more we love it, the more it makes us look professional. Just checking I'm still on the right planet. Yup, I definitely am.
- chrismcb 13y ago
  So why not just use Google to search rapgenious? I mean if you KNOW you want to go to rapgenius, and rapgenius's search isn't good. Just use google and tell google to search only rapgenius.
- mbel 13y ago
  > and when I search lyrics in Google, I really want to go to rap genius. So, isn't it easier (and faster) to go directly to rapgenius or create custom search keyword in the browser, than ask google for the lyrics?
  - 001sky 13y ago
    when I search lyrics in Google, I really want to go to rap genius Sounds like a wasted step. Go to your site and search it. Or has it outsourced that (/expectation) to Google? Even then, search {site: XYZ} in the g box and be done with it.
    - alxndr 13y ago
      Better yet: add RapGenius as a %s-bookmark (or Chrome calls them search engines): "http://rapgenius.com/search?q=%s" http://rapgenius.com/search?q=%s" My favorite use for this is a Google IFL search restricted to site:wikipedia.org, so now "w something" in my URL bar takes me right to the Wikipedia page for Something. So yeah, outsourcing to Google... but fast and handy and almost always what I'm looking for.
csomar 13y ago
Google is actually penalizing its users' as they'll have less useful results instead of the best possible results. Google is not supposed to be the Internet police. It's supposed to analyze the best sites, and rank them. Rap Genius getting some spammy links doesn't make it a better site; but it doesn't make it worse either. The next thing we are going to see is a Google Justice Department?
- ScottWhigham 13y ago
  I'd like to hear from someone who downvoted you with an explanation about why. I genuinely don't understand - you've made a logical post but clearly 1-5 people have disagreed and you're now on the bottom of the page in light, light gray (downvoted). I'm struggling to grasp the "Why?"
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  Taking action which poses a stron disincentive to the kind of black hat SEO campaign RG was runnin benefits Google's users—tolerating such an action (especially as widely piblicized as RG's campaign had become) would have hurt Google's users far more than penalizing RG ever could.
AndersSandvik 13y ago
Wrong title. Google didnt do this. They did this to themself. They broke the rules
SethMurphy 13y ago
Google isn't the only way to access the internet. All this complaining of not being able to type "rap genius" in google to go to the site sounds real juvenile, doesn't even rise to first world problem status. Try typing rapgenius.com and using their search mechanism. These actions may stop some of their growth, but should not be a hinderance to anyone complaining here.
- walshemj 13y ago
  It wasn't brand search terms that they where monetizing - they where obviously targeting general rap related terms by doing some very dark hat SEO
  - SethMurphy 13y ago
    Google goes after anything it considers abuse with a bit of punitive damage, which seems fair to me. This is not a simple correction but punishment of past abuse in order to deter future abuse. The correction will come after the links are removed and their sentence is served.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
knodi 13y ago
I just watch the video in the article and I have to say are the founders really like this in real life or is it all an act?
dimitar 13y ago
I laughed out loud when I realized this (I was searching for Tyler, the Creator lyrics) - instead of filing a page with their links, now they are nowhere to be found. Checked my watch and it was still December'13 so something is wrong. The annotations have really degraded in quality - there used to be some very good ones that gave you context and explained complex puns and references and now you have 9gag style memes. The RapGenius story and characters become more and more fit for a movie making fun of the whole internet industry.
tzs 13y ago
I occasionally search for lyrics. If I know the name of the artist and song, I search for those with the word lyrics added. If I have a line from the song I'll type that and add lyrics. I don't think I've ever noticed a Rap Genius result. To check this, I just searched for a few lyrics on Bing (where presumably Rap Genius is not penalized), and did not get any Rap Genius results. I even tried some Justin Bieber lyrics searches because I believe the links that got Rap Genius in trouble had to do with Bieber songs. Nothing on Bing. Could someone give some examples of searches that used to include Rap Genius high in the results?
Shorel 13y ago
Is there any hope for less softonic results now?
fiatjaf 13y ago
RapGenius is not that good. It's heavy. AZ Lyrics has many ads, but it's pure text. Good for lyrics. I don't really want comments in the lyrics I search for.

111 points by acremades 13y ago

They got greedy is all that happened. They were essentially at the top - but wanted to take the whole pie for themselves, instead of perhaps naturally getting there.

ihatehandles 13y ago

Rules are rules, but do they deserve a pardon?

octatone2 13y ago
No.
- ihatehandles 13y ago
  Yeah I guess you're right. Rap Genius' well-known brand aside, if they treat them differently to how they would penalize an unknown tiny site then that's a can of worms they won't be able to rid themselves of.

moocowduckquack 13y ago

Now RapGenius.com doesn’t appear on the first page of results for a search of “Rap Genius” Readjusting their rankings is one thing, but that is just google breaking their own service. If people have typed "rap genius" into google, there is a reasonable chance that they might want to get to the thing named "rap genius", which is on page 5 in the search I just did. And the thing is, that nearly all the rest of the results are not for rap geniuses, which presumably would be another reason for searching the term, but are just blogs and news sites reporting about the company Rap Genius. edit - Given that the public are fairly ambivalent about google and so are not likely to take google's side too much in stuff like this, and if you can get your rating fixed afterward by being nice, couldn't a public spat with google like this actually be good publicity, compared to google not making that much of a fuss and merely adjusting their rankings to adjust for the seo tactics used, rather than acting punitively. If I was looking at this as a marketing droid, all I would see is that google have replaced the position my main site used to take, with loads of articles about my company that then link to my site, which makes it look as though loads of folk are interested in the company while Google are publicly burying the link, which sparks people's curiousity. Is not that I think gaming the ranking is particularly good business practice, I just don't think this is particularly good tactics on google's part.

llamataboot 13y ago
No, this is google enforcing a harsh penalty for one site to discourage other people from trying to game search which basically makes us all suffer through content farm links, etc.
- HelloMcFly 13y ago
  I don't agree. I see the need for punishment of this kind of behavior, but removing the site from a Google search that seems to specifically be looking for that site is a bridge too far in my book.
  - llamataboot 13y ago
    It's pretty much the standard harsh google slapdown. Has happened to many other sites. I imagine they'll get out of jail sooner rather than later. It's meant as a punishment I think, not just a correction of the terms that they ranked for unethically.

minimaxir 13y ago

NOTE: There is an update not in the original report, apparently RG is working with Google to resolve the issue: We are working with Google right now to resolve this. They’ve been really great, helping us identify changes we need to make, even on Christmas. We’re working on it as fast as we can, and expect to be back on Google very soon. It sucks to be off Google for us and for the thousands of our community members who have worked so hard to create what’s often the best search result. We hope everyone who reads this will take a little time out from their Christmas and head to Rap Genius and sign up so you can contribute your knowledge on your favorite subjects – becoming a member of our community makes the site way more fun. Merry Christmas

itsprofitbaron 13y ago
By working with Google they mean they're going to work with them to identify the links they need to clean up, try and get those links "cleaned up" themselves, submit a disavow file and then get them to reconsider the site as outlined here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6963785 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6963785 It happens all the time and no disrespect to RapGenius, to companies much bigger than them.
- walshemj 13y ago
  And for far less reason.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]

ColinWright 13y ago

Main discussion is over here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6963365 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6963365 Adding to the discussion here will probably just duplicate what's being said over there.

flexie 13y ago

Still, the real story here is that almost all small businesses depend on the mercy of one giant corporation. This Google monstrosity / police man should be split up into smaller, competing search engines.

sanswork 13y ago
You realize the impossibility of this and this is a joke comment right?
- glesica 13y ago
  The suggested solution may have been a joke (although it is not without precedent) but the analysis was spot-on IMHO.
JHSheridan 13y ago
Ever heard of Bing, DuckDuckGo, Yahoo, etc.? Google just does it better than anyone else at the moment. Now I'm not saying Google doesn't have a de facto monopoly, but I'm wary of anyone who says a private company should be forced to split. Should they be punished for being the most popular?
- fleitz 13y ago
  Good thing google is public rather than private.
  - JHSheridan 13y ago
    Do I need to explain how a publicly traded company is still private, or are you just being purposely obtuse?
    - walshemj 13y ago
      Look at Googles multi class share structure and ask that Q again.

benguild 13y ago

It's probably a temporary ban that will last up to 90 days once appealed.

bobbyi_settv 13y ago
What grounds would they have for appealing? They haven't denied the original email posted was authentic. It seems to be black and white that they were engaging in blackhat SEO.
cabbeer 13y ago
30 days.
- bhartzer 13y ago
  Here generally is not a timeframe involved in this. Is google penalized them then they received a manual penalty for unnatural links. They will have to identify all the links that are unnatural, contact all those site owners and try to take get the links taken down. Or disavow them and show a huge effort was made... And tell google that they won't do it again through a reconsideration request. Unless google makes an exception, it is taking at least five days or more for google to respond to RRs. And even then, once a penalty is lifted, the site won't necessarily come back quickly.

znowi 13y ago

We are working with Google right now to resolve this. They’ve been really great, helping us identify changes we need to make. As if they don't know what they did. These guys are toxic. I'd ban them for a year.

olalonde 13y ago
[...] to create what’s often the best search result. Poor them, they created the best lyrics site in the world, they deserve to be the first search result! /sarcasm
yeukhon 13y ago
Give them the credit for trying to resolve a problem. Are you telling me if you run a business you would never this kind of mistake? It is a good idea to explain why they did it and what they were thinking, instead of just say "damn I screwed up." I rather hear people explain to me why they did it and they now think they screw up. It is part of resolution. If you don't care about explanation (or excuse if you think that's the right erm), well, fine.
- chrismcb 13y ago
  Wasn't the first thing they said was "damn we screwed up" AND "everyone else does it?"
- ryanhuff 13y ago
  What company leadership allowed to happen shows a real disrespect for one of the primary risks to the business. Without having the explanation that you described, the two most likely explanations in my mind are either this was standard practice all along (finally got caught), or somebody made one of those epic fail business decisions. If its #1, I doubt we'll see a clear explanation. If its #2, somebody may have to fall on the sword as the "poster child" of bad business decisions.
- JoachimSchipper 13y ago
  > Are you telling me if you run a business you would never this kind of mistake? It's not that hard to, you know, not spam.

coin 13y ago

Article content is interesting. But -1 for disabling pinchzoom, as it severely impacts usability on mobile devices.

sixQuarks 13y ago

my first instinct is to hate these guys, probably because I feel they are just doing an act. But going beyond my initial kneejerk reaction, I do have to admit they are doing something different (as far as their "act" goes). Game changers almost never go with the flow, so whether you hate them or love them, at least they're not following the crowds.

benched 13y ago

So, the best lyric site by a mile no longer shows up in ordinary Google lyric searches. As a music fanatic, searching lyrics is something I do all day long every day, by the way - and when I search lyrics in Google, I really want to go to rap genius. Anyway, supposedly this degradation of Google had to happen to make a public example, and most of us are ok with it because the founders of RG are known to be kind of jerky and unprofessional, and we loves professionalism cause the more we love it, the more it makes us look professional. Just checking I'm still on the right planet. Yup, I definitely am.

chrismcb 13y ago
So why not just use Google to search rapgenious? I mean if you KNOW you want to go to rapgenius, and rapgenius's search isn't good. Just use google and tell google to search only rapgenius.
mbel 13y ago
> and when I search lyrics in Google, I really want to go to rap genius. So, isn't it easier (and faster) to go directly to rapgenius or create custom search keyword in the browser, than ask google for the lyrics?
- 001sky 13y ago
  when I search lyrics in Google, I really want to go to rap genius Sounds like a wasted step. Go to your site and search it. Or has it outsourced that (/expectation) to Google? Even then, search {site: XYZ} in the g box and be done with it.
  - alxndr 13y ago
    Better yet: add RapGenius as a %s-bookmark (or Chrome calls them search engines): "http://rapgenius.com/search?q=%s" http://rapgenius.com/search?q=%s" My favorite use for this is a Google IFL search restricted to site:wikipedia.org, so now "w something" in my URL bar takes me right to the Wikipedia page for Something. So yeah, outsourcing to Google... but fast and handy and almost always what I'm looking for.

csomar 13y ago

Google is actually penalizing its users' as they'll have less useful results instead of the best possible results. Google is not supposed to be the Internet police. It's supposed to analyze the best sites, and rank them. Rap Genius getting some spammy links doesn't make it a better site; but it doesn't make it worse either. The next thing we are going to see is a Google Justice Department?

ScottWhigham 13y ago
I'd like to hear from someone who downvoted you with an explanation about why. I genuinely don't understand - you've made a logical post but clearly 1-5 people have disagreed and you're now on the bottom of the page in light, light gray (downvoted). I'm struggling to grasp the "Why?"
dragonwriter 13y ago
Taking action which poses a stron disincentive to the kind of black hat SEO campaign RG was runnin benefits Google's users—tolerating such an action (especially as widely piblicized as RG's campaign had become) would have hurt Google's users far more than penalizing RG ever could.

AndersSandvik 13y ago

Wrong title. Google didnt do this. They did this to themself. They broke the rules

SethMurphy 13y ago

Google isn't the only way to access the internet. All this complaining of not being able to type "rap genius" in google to go to the site sounds real juvenile, doesn't even rise to first world problem status. Try typing rapgenius.com and using their search mechanism. These actions may stop some of their growth, but should not be a hinderance to anyone complaining here.

walshemj 13y ago
It wasn't brand search terms that they where monetizing - they where obviously targeting general rap related terms by doing some very dark hat SEO
- SethMurphy 13y ago
  Google goes after anything it considers abuse with a bit of punitive damage, which seems fair to me. This is not a simple correction but punishment of past abuse in order to deter future abuse. The correction will come after the links are removed and their sentence is served.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

knodi 13y ago

I just watch the video in the article and I have to say are the founders really like this in real life or is it all an act?

dimitar 13y ago

I laughed out loud when I realized this (I was searching for Tyler, the Creator lyrics) - instead of filing a page with their links, now they are nowhere to be found. Checked my watch and it was still December'13 so something is wrong. The annotations have really degraded in quality - there used to be some very good ones that gave you context and explained complex puns and references and now you have 9gag style memes. The RapGenius story and characters become more and more fit for a movie making fun of the whole internet industry.

tzs 13y ago

I occasionally search for lyrics. If I know the name of the artist and song, I search for those with the word lyrics added. If I have a line from the song I'll type that and add lyrics. I don't think I've ever noticed a Rap Genius result. To check this, I just searched for a few lyrics on Bing (where presumably Rap Genius is not penalized), and did not get any Rap Genius results. I even tried some Justin Bieber lyrics searches because I believe the links that got Rap Genius in trouble had to do with Bieber songs. Nothing on Bing. Could someone give some examples of searches that used to include Rap Genius high in the results?

Shorel 13y ago

Is there any hope for less softonic results now?

fiatjaf 13y ago

RapGenius is not that good. It's heavy. AZ Lyrics has many ads, but it's pure text. Good for lyrics. I don't really want comments in the lyrics I search for.