7 ms·

You and the sibling comment are exactly why bullies continue to bully their victims. I'm not part of any machine, I don't bully anyone and I don't get bullied b

by yogo 13y ago

You and the sibling comment are exactly why bullies continue to bully their victims. I'm not part of any machine, I don't bully anyone and I don't get bullied because I believe in mutual respect among human beings. If a bully is using their power to bully someone, my point is you still put up a fight. When you don't it empowers them even more. I'm not arguing because I'm pretty sure we'll never agree on this, but some people go through life without this problem and all I'll say is that it's often good to have a take no shit attitude about things.

eschaton 13y ago
Stop blaming the victim. Victim-blaming puts the onus on the victim to prevent something that is neither their fault nor their responsibility. You don't get bullied because you haven't been singled out by a bully, not because you "exhibit mutual respect" or for anything else you do. Awareness — which is essentially getting people to admit bullying is possible in their environment — makes it easier for victims to come forward and leverage what structures are in place to end (not "fight") bullying. It makes it possible for victims to (1) be believed instead of dismissed, (2) not be treated as responsible for the bullying themselves, and (3) taken seriously as to the extent and damage of the bullying they experience. Even in the schoolyard situations you allude to, bullying isn't a matter of either "ignore them and they'll leave you alone" or "even if you don't win, once you fight they'll leave you alone for a softer target." Whether a bully gives up on a victim is entirely up to the bully and the power structure in the environment, not the victim. The philosophy you describe actually makes the power structure unavailable to the victim — which all but guarantees bullying continues.
- whistlerbrk 13y ago
  No! Just because something isn't your fault and isn't your responsibility doesn't mean you can not or should not address it. You have a choice. Everyone is "aware" of school yard bullies. No one doubts it is going on. All your peers as a kid are very well aware of the basic animal behaviours going on even if they don't yet think of them as such. The stigma is just sitting around taking it or waiting for someone to do something about it. You have a responsibility to yourself to address it and that is what needs to be taught. "Whether a bully gives up on a victim is entirely up to the bully and the power structure in the environment, not the victim" The power structure is what is inhibiting the individual from acting! Zero tolerance policies neuter human behaviour which needs to be expressed especially when people are young. If you don't fight physically or not, make up and move on as a kid, and learn the consequences of each route and how to navigate them you will become a frustrated passive aggressive adult or worse, go postal and let it all out in a terrible tsunami of pent up rage. All animals fight and play fight and then move on. I really hope we can stop trying to deny our base instincts and instead learn how to control them _within_ ourselves.
  - eschaton 13y ago
    Awareness means more than knowing something can happen. It means having ways to address it. It is not the victim's responsibility to "stand up to" a bully. It is the responsibility of the power structure to prevent bullying as much as it can, and take seriously and address bullying when it happens; avoiding this responsibility doesn't help anyone but bullies. It is actually this abdication of responsibility that causes a power structure to enable rather than prevent bullying, because it results in few or no consequences for the bully and no improvement in environment for the victim.
    - whistlerbrk 13y ago
      So, I don't believe that any power structure can so easily address the bullying issue without delving into grey areas. You need only look at the legal system which does delve into grey areas of inter-personal conflict for an example. So the alternatives from a system wide level are don't address it all or be very strict. We went to latter extreme with "zero tolerance" policies, which have failed. Not addressing it all is also bad, because as others have pointed out, we don't live in a fairy tale land where turning around and hitting the bully always works. So then what's the choice? Don't structure it. Give the power to the adult in the room, the teacher, to mediate. They are the people with the best information and closest to the situation. They know their kids. Great teachers, great camp counselors, all do the same thing - 'are you guys okay, or am I going to have to tell the principal about this?'. They play that incredibly delicate role of, do you want to deal with each other and me, or the big bad unknown of the administrator down the hall? Having that level in between means they maintain the confidence of their charges and the power to elevate as well. Unfortunately, teachers today, have been stripped of their ability to act in this capacity. Now, we could very well be talking about the same thing, since the teacher in this example could be said to be part of the power structure. My point of course is, we can't have a rule book when dealing with these matters, only a guidebook. Fair?
mikeash 13y ago
"I don't bully anyone and I don't get bullied because I believe in mutual respect among human beings." Are you for real? Did you just blame every victim of bullying for failing to "believe in mutual respect among human beings"?
- yogo 13y ago
  I really did not mean to come off as blaming the victim. Instead I'm promoting stopping things at the first onset. So in the context of "mutual respect" what that means is that if someone is treating you in a way you don't approve, you let them know right then and there you don't stand for it.
  - mikeash 13y ago
    I don't think there's functionally much of a difference between flat-out blaming the victim and "merely" saying that victims can stop the behavior with what basically boils down to "one weird trick".
phaus 13y ago
Real life isn't a fairy tale. Bullies win these fights more often than their victims. When we are talking about the work place, losing such a fight can end in unemployment. Its not as easy for non-developers to find new jobs. Personally, I evaluate the chances of winning in the event that I choose to fight against the consequences of losing. When I was in the military, my entire section had the privilege of having a steroid-laden megalomaniac as a first-line supervisor for close to three years. He was a couple of ranks higher than us, which as far as the military is concerned pretty much makes him God. He would show up to work every day at our remote site (away from anyone that outranked him) and immediately start screaming and throwing things. The worst part is that he was careful to never act inappropriately when we were around anyone who could have actually done anything about it. On paper, he was an excellent Soldier, and so no one ever believed anyone that complained about him. As stupid the phenomenon known as bullying seems, bullies can be clever in their own way. A few of us tried to stand up to him, but when you join the military, your right to freedom of speech is waived. No matter how politely anyone would try to address the issue, he would immediately threaten them with non-judicial punishment (They can take salary and rank from you simply because your supervisor claims that you did something he didn't like. You can ask for a trial instead, but then you could end up in prison.) if they didn't go away. So, in our situation, we just put up with him as best we could. Innocence in the military means fuck-all when your opponent is higher ranking, so we didn't have much recourse. As shift-leaders, we fought to protect the younger Soldiers from this guy as much as we could, which of course meant that we had to put up with more of his shit than anyone. If I had been a civilian, I would have had a better chance of doing something about his misconduct, but even still, there would have been a risk of termination should those efforts fail. Ideologically, taking action against a bully is always the right thing to do, but for those of us who live in the real world, failure brings consequences.
karmajunkie 13y ago
Having a "take no shit" attitude is a statement of privilege. This is the same flawed rationale that says "I can do it so anybody can do it" and if you'll pardon the phrase, its utter horseshit. With all due respect (which is to say, about as much as you give the victims of bullying) its your attitude that empowers bullies, not mine, and certainly not the choice or inability of the victim to fight back.

by yogo 13y ago

eschaton 13y ago

Stop blaming the victim. Victim-blaming puts the onus on the victim to prevent something that is neither their fault nor their responsibility. You don't get bullied because you haven't been singled out by a bully, not because you "exhibit mutual respect" or for anything else you do. Awareness — which is essentially getting people to admit bullying is possible in their environment — makes it easier for victims to come forward and leverage what structures are in place to end (not "fight") bullying. It makes it possible for victims to (1) be believed instead of dismissed, (2) not be treated as responsible for the bullying themselves, and (3) taken seriously as to the extent and damage of the bullying they experience. Even in the schoolyard situations you allude to, bullying isn't a matter of either "ignore them and they'll leave you alone" or "even if you don't win, once you fight they'll leave you alone for a softer target." Whether a bully gives up on a victim is entirely up to the bully and the power structure in the environment, not the victim. The philosophy you describe actually makes the power structure unavailable to the victim — which all but guarantees bullying continues.

whistlerbrk 13y ago
No! Just because something isn't your fault and isn't your responsibility doesn't mean you can not or should not address it. You have a choice. Everyone is "aware" of school yard bullies. No one doubts it is going on. All your peers as a kid are very well aware of the basic animal behaviours going on even if they don't yet think of them as such. The stigma is just sitting around taking it or waiting for someone to do something about it. You have a responsibility to yourself to address it and that is what needs to be taught. "Whether a bully gives up on a victim is entirely up to the bully and the power structure in the environment, not the victim" The power structure is what is inhibiting the individual from acting! Zero tolerance policies neuter human behaviour which needs to be expressed especially when people are young. If you don't fight physically or not, make up and move on as a kid, and learn the consequences of each route and how to navigate them you will become a frustrated passive aggressive adult or worse, go postal and let it all out in a terrible tsunami of pent up rage. All animals fight and play fight and then move on. I really hope we can stop trying to deny our base instincts and instead learn how to control them _within_ ourselves.
- eschaton 13y ago
  Awareness means more than knowing something can happen. It means having ways to address it. It is not the victim's responsibility to "stand up to" a bully. It is the responsibility of the power structure to prevent bullying as much as it can, and take seriously and address bullying when it happens; avoiding this responsibility doesn't help anyone but bullies. It is actually this abdication of responsibility that causes a power structure to enable rather than prevent bullying, because it results in few or no consequences for the bully and no improvement in environment for the victim.
  - whistlerbrk 13y ago
    So, I don't believe that any power structure can so easily address the bullying issue without delving into grey areas. You need only look at the legal system which does delve into grey areas of inter-personal conflict for an example. So the alternatives from a system wide level are don't address it all or be very strict. We went to latter extreme with "zero tolerance" policies, which have failed. Not addressing it all is also bad, because as others have pointed out, we don't live in a fairy tale land where turning around and hitting the bully always works. So then what's the choice? Don't structure it. Give the power to the adult in the room, the teacher, to mediate. They are the people with the best information and closest to the situation. They know their kids. Great teachers, great camp counselors, all do the same thing - 'are you guys okay, or am I going to have to tell the principal about this?'. They play that incredibly delicate role of, do you want to deal with each other and me, or the big bad unknown of the administrator down the hall? Having that level in between means they maintain the confidence of their charges and the power to elevate as well. Unfortunately, teachers today, have been stripped of their ability to act in this capacity. Now, we could very well be talking about the same thing, since the teacher in this example could be said to be part of the power structure. My point of course is, we can't have a rule book when dealing with these matters, only a guidebook. Fair?

mikeash 13y ago

"I don't bully anyone and I don't get bullied because I believe in mutual respect among human beings." Are you for real? Did you just blame every victim of bullying for failing to "believe in mutual respect among human beings"?

yogo 13y ago
I really did not mean to come off as blaming the victim. Instead I'm promoting stopping things at the first onset. So in the context of "mutual respect" what that means is that if someone is treating you in a way you don't approve, you let them know right then and there you don't stand for it.
- mikeash 13y ago
  I don't think there's functionally much of a difference between flat-out blaming the victim and "merely" saying that victims can stop the behavior with what basically boils down to "one weird trick".

phaus 13y ago

Real life isn't a fairy tale. Bullies win these fights more often than their victims. When we are talking about the work place, losing such a fight can end in unemployment. Its not as easy for non-developers to find new jobs. Personally, I evaluate the chances of winning in the event that I choose to fight against the consequences of losing. When I was in the military, my entire section had the privilege of having a steroid-laden megalomaniac as a first-line supervisor for close to three years. He was a couple of ranks higher than us, which as far as the military is concerned pretty much makes him God. He would show up to work every day at our remote site (away from anyone that outranked him) and immediately start screaming and throwing things. The worst part is that he was careful to never act inappropriately when we were around anyone who could have actually done anything about it. On paper, he was an excellent Soldier, and so no one ever believed anyone that complained about him. As stupid the phenomenon known as bullying seems, bullies can be clever in their own way. A few of us tried to stand up to him, but when you join the military, your right to freedom of speech is waived. No matter how politely anyone would try to address the issue, he would immediately threaten them with non-judicial punishment (They can take salary and rank from you simply because your supervisor claims that you did something he didn't like. You can ask for a trial instead, but then you could end up in prison.) if they didn't go away. So, in our situation, we just put up with him as best we could. Innocence in the military means fuck-all when your opponent is higher ranking, so we didn't have much recourse. As shift-leaders, we fought to protect the younger Soldiers from this guy as much as we could, which of course meant that we had to put up with more of his shit than anyone. If I had been a civilian, I would have had a better chance of doing something about his misconduct, but even still, there would have been a risk of termination should those efforts fail. Ideologically, taking action against a bully is always the right thing to do, but for those of us who live in the real world, failure brings consequences.

karmajunkie 13y ago

Having a "take no shit" attitude is a statement of privilege. This is the same flawed rationale that says "I can do it so anybody can do it" and if you'll pardon the phrase, its utter horseshit. With all due respect (which is to say, about as much as you give the victims of bullying) its your attitude that empowers bullies, not mine, and certainly not the choice or inability of the victim to fight back.