3 ms·

I think you and I are in agreement. We're just phrasing the same sentiment differently.

lisper 13y ago
Well, I vehemently disagree with this: > Defending freedom of speech feels - and should feel - very painful. It doesn't feel painful to me at all. I choose freedom, not just for myself but for my fellow man, and I accept that the price of freedom is putting up with people making choices and doing things that I would not choose to do, that annoy the hell out of me, and that do not make the world a better place. But I am completely at peace with my choice. And I understand how a not-entirely-unreasonable person might make a different choice. But the only reason that this choice should be "painful" is if you don't really want freedom. You might want some abstracted utopian notion of freedom, a freedom without cost or consequences. But this freedom only exists in your imagination, not the real world. Real freedom is messy and inconvenient and a pain in the ass, and I'll take it over oppression any day of the week with no hesitation and no regrets, and certainly no pain.
- deleted 13y ago
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- EliRivers 13y ago
  And where does your particular choice of freedom stop, and oppression begin? Will you let me be free to come over and take all your belonging? Or do you simply draw your freedom line in a very, very slightly different place?
  - lisper 13y ago
    It's not about where the line is drawn, it's about the distinction between difficult and painful. Figuring out how to draw the line is sometimes difficult, but it is never painful, at least not for me. And, I submit, if it's painful for you, you're doing it wrong. The question of whether or not I will "let" you be free to steal my stuff is a straw man. The topic at hand is freedom of speech, not freedom to steal. We can have a separate discussion about that if you want, but it's a different topic. But even in the case of freedom of speech there are reasonable limits on things like slander and raising false alarms (shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre). "Freedom" does not mean that everyone gets to do whatever the fuck they want whenever they want. That is a childish caricature of freedom. Real freedom involves making the tradeoffs necessary so that everyone gets to make their own choices as much as possible, with "possible" being the operative word. Letting everyone do whatever they want whenever they want is not possible in the real world, and so maximizing freedom, like any optimization problem with real constraints, is hard work. But doing this hard work need not be, should not be, and, if you truly value freedom will not be, painful.
    - techdragon 13y ago
      Have you ever heard the expression "it pains me to say this"? Sometimes the word painful is used to imply the internal turmoil one has when making difficult decisions. I'm not attempting to be disparaging, merely curious, since I don't know anything about your level of familiarity with English idioms. The phrase "painful decision" when read by myself immediately reads as synonymous to "difficult decision", so your attempting to make a distinction here that honestly confuses me.
      - lisper 13y ago
        > Have you ever heard the expression "it pains me to say this"? Yes. It's an idiom. It means, "I feel uncomfortable or ambiguous about saying this, but I'm going to say it nonetheless." But you didn't use the word "pain" in this idiomatic sense. You said: "Defending freedom of speech feels - and should feel - very painful." No. Having a tooth filled without anesthetic feels painful. Deciding to put a pet to sleep feels painful. Going through a divorce feels painful. (I speak from personal experience in all three cases.) But defending freedom of speech does not feel painful. It can be quite frustrating at times, but never painful. Most of the time it make me feel proud. > I don't want to see Neo-Nazis protesting in a public area of my city Neither do I. But I absolutely want neo-nazis to be able to protest in a public area of my city. There is not an iota of moral ambiguity here (at least not in my mind) and hence no pain. It does not "pain me to say" this: I will defend the right of neo-nazis to spew their bile every bit as vigorously as I will oppose nearly all of what they say.

Well, I vehemently disagree with this: > Defending freedom of speech feels - and should feel - very painful. It doesn't feel painful to me at all. I choose freedom, not just for myself but for my fellow man, and I accept that the price of freedom is putting up with people making choices and doing things that I would not choose to do, that annoy the hell out of me, and that do not make the world a better place. But I am completely at peace with my choice. And I understand how a not-entirely-unreasonable person might make a different choice. But the only reason that this choice should be "painful" is if you don't really want freedom. You might want some abstracted utopian notion of freedom, a freedom without cost or consequences. But this freedom only exists in your imagination, not the real world. Real freedom is messy and inconvenient and a pain in the ass, and I'll take it over oppression any day of the week with no hesitation and no regrets, and certainly no pain.

deleted 13y ago
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EliRivers 13y ago
And where does your particular choice of freedom stop, and oppression begin? Will you let me be free to come over and take all your belonging? Or do you simply draw your freedom line in a very, very slightly different place?
- lisper 13y ago
  It's not about where the line is drawn, it's about the distinction between difficult and painful. Figuring out how to draw the line is sometimes difficult, but it is never painful, at least not for me. And, I submit, if it's painful for you, you're doing it wrong. The question of whether or not I will "let" you be free to steal my stuff is a straw man. The topic at hand is freedom of speech, not freedom to steal. We can have a separate discussion about that if you want, but it's a different topic. But even in the case of freedom of speech there are reasonable limits on things like slander and raising false alarms (shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre). "Freedom" does not mean that everyone gets to do whatever the fuck they want whenever they want. That is a childish caricature of freedom. Real freedom involves making the tradeoffs necessary so that everyone gets to make their own choices as much as possible, with "possible" being the operative word. Letting everyone do whatever they want whenever they want is not possible in the real world, and so maximizing freedom, like any optimization problem with real constraints, is hard work. But doing this hard work need not be, should not be, and, if you truly value freedom will not be, painful.
  - techdragon 13y ago
    Have you ever heard the expression "it pains me to say this"? Sometimes the word painful is used to imply the internal turmoil one has when making difficult decisions. I'm not attempting to be disparaging, merely curious, since I don't know anything about your level of familiarity with English idioms. The phrase "painful decision" when read by myself immediately reads as synonymous to "difficult decision", so your attempting to make a distinction here that honestly confuses me.
    - lisper 13y ago
      > Have you ever heard the expression "it pains me to say this"? Yes. It's an idiom. It means, "I feel uncomfortable or ambiguous about saying this, but I'm going to say it nonetheless." But you didn't use the word "pain" in this idiomatic sense. You said: "Defending freedom of speech feels - and should feel - very painful." No. Having a tooth filled without anesthetic feels painful. Deciding to put a pet to sleep feels painful. Going through a divorce feels painful. (I speak from personal experience in all three cases.) But defending freedom of speech does not feel painful. It can be quite frustrating at times, but never painful. Most of the time it make me feel proud. > I don't want to see Neo-Nazis protesting in a public area of my city Neither do I. But I absolutely want neo-nazis to be able to protest in a public area of my city. There is not an iota of moral ambiguity here (at least not in my mind) and hence no pain. It does not "pain me to say" this: I will defend the right of neo-nazis to spew their bile every bit as vigorously as I will oppose nearly all of what they say.