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So much for the use-mention distinction. Filters so far seem unable to maintain it.

by ChristianMarks 13y ago

SideburnsOfDoom 13y ago
Right. making the use-mention distinction reliably is probably an AI-complete problem.
- ChristianMarks 13y ago
  I make the assumption that censors, fanatics and some persons in positions of authority either have difficulty distinguishing use from mention, or choose not to make the distinction. For example (at the risk of offending certain sensibilities), I took the defensive attitude that the operating assumption in academia was that space-like separated, non-interacting particles at opposite ends of the universe were actively sexually harassing each other, and behaved accordingly.
jere 13y ago
I've never heard the use-mention distinction, but its interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use%E2%80%93mention_distinction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use%E2%80%93mention_distinction However, the distinction doesn't seem to be relevant here. When Claire Perry is discussing "porn" on her site, she'd be using it, unless she's referring to the word itself. Example: http://www.claireperry.org.uk/my-news/previous-stories/claire-perry-todays-announcement-on-internet/233 http://www.claireperry.org.uk/my-news/previous-stories/clair... >Given that 83 per cent of people say that the easy availability of internet porn is damaging to children, shouldn't this be rolled out more quickly? Unless there is a different meaining of use-mention not described on wikipedia.
- ChristianMarks 13y ago
  I am using the phrase to refer to the distinction between 'discourse about X' and 'X-discourse', rather than the more limited technical sense given to it in the Wikipedia. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy is the better reference: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/quotation/ http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/quotation/. More inclusive uses of the phrase 'use-mention distinction' are not uncommon. See, for instance, this entry on the use-mention distinction and political correctness in the Language Log: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005349.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005349.h... The Language Log concludes, "In sum, failure to distinguish between uses and mentions poses a danger to freedom of speech and rational enquiry as well as the danger of falsely accusing and condemning innocent people." The sense of the use-mention distinction appearing here refers not only to individually mentioned words, but phrases, sentences, paragraphs and entire bodies of discourse.
- SideburnsOfDoom 13y ago
  > When Claire Perry is discussing "porn" on her site, she'd be using it Claire Perry is talking about porn, but she is not talking porn. It is unfeasably hard to reliably distinguish between the two; and regular keyword matching will reliably fail to do so.

So much for the use-mention distinction. Filters so far seem unable to maintain it.

SideburnsOfDoom 13y ago

Right. making the use-mention distinction reliably is probably an AI-complete problem.

ChristianMarks 13y ago
I make the assumption that censors, fanatics and some persons in positions of authority either have difficulty distinguishing use from mention, or choose not to make the distinction. For example (at the risk of offending certain sensibilities), I took the defensive attitude that the operating assumption in academia was that space-like separated, non-interacting particles at opposite ends of the universe were actively sexually harassing each other, and behaved accordingly.

jere 13y ago

I've never heard the use-mention distinction, but its interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use%E2%80%93mention_distinction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use%E2%80%93mention_distinction However, the distinction doesn't seem to be relevant here. When Claire Perry is discussing "porn" on her site, she'd be using it, unless she's referring to the word itself. Example: http://www.claireperry.org.uk/my-news/previous-stories/claire-perry-todays-announcement-on-internet/233 http://www.claireperry.org.uk/my-news/previous-stories/clair... >Given that 83 per cent of people say that the easy availability of internet porn is damaging to children, shouldn't this be rolled out more quickly? Unless there is a different meaining of use-mention not described on wikipedia.

ChristianMarks 13y ago
I am using the phrase to refer to the distinction between 'discourse about X' and 'X-discourse', rather than the more limited technical sense given to it in the Wikipedia. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy is the better reference: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/quotation/ http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/quotation/. More inclusive uses of the phrase 'use-mention distinction' are not uncommon. See, for instance, this entry on the use-mention distinction and political correctness in the Language Log: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005349.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005349.h... The Language Log concludes, "In sum, failure to distinguish between uses and mentions poses a danger to freedom of speech and rational enquiry as well as the danger of falsely accusing and condemning innocent people." The sense of the use-mention distinction appearing here refers not only to individually mentioned words, but phrases, sentences, paragraphs and entire bodies of discourse.
SideburnsOfDoom 13y ago
> When Claire Perry is discussing "porn" on her site, she'd be using it Claire Perry is talking about porn, but she is not talking porn. It is unfeasably hard to reliably distinguish between the two; and regular keyword matching will reliably fail to do so.