5 ms·

Interesting that this is posted to HN - software developers in the US currently have historically abnormally high levels of bargaining power and leverage.

rosser 13y ago
And that's a privilege I think we should check regularly. A lot of the flavors of libertarianism that are so common in hacker circles seem to be premised on a notion that everyone else has the kinds of power that we do to dictate the terms of our labor, and that's just not true. EDIT: phrasing.
- yummyfajitas 13y ago
  It's far less useful to check your privilege than it is to check if the arguments are correct. The former is an easy way to dismiss an argument without actually reading it. The latter requires careful thought and runs the risk that you might realize you are incorrect.
  - rosser 13y ago
    I disagree. Even if you're fallaciously occasioned to "check your privilege", it's still a useful exercise. And doesn't writing off all such invocations make you guilty of the same kind of prejudicial dismissal you're arguing against, anyway?
    - yummyfajitas 13y ago
      So what? A privileged person can be correct, and an unprivileged one can be wrong. What do you gain by checking your privilege over checking your reasoning/facts?
      - rosser 13y ago
        They aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, they're often the very same thing. (Edit: though it's perhaps more about checking premises than argument in many cases.) Consider my original comment in this thread: is it not the case that the kinds of labor leverage that software people have aren't shared by everyone else? Is it not therefore the case that the kinds of libertarianism espoused by so many software people, premised at least in part on that leverage, don't apply to everyone else as much as they seem to think? I submit that if the developers espousing those fallaciously premised flavors of libertarianism were (able) to "check their privilege", they'd arrive at different conclusions.
- omonra 13y ago
  I see a marked increase in the use of the word 'privilege' and how it 'should be checked' - usually in reference to not being black/hispanic, female or gay. What exactly do you mean? Is it same as 'count your blessings' or shorthand for 'be aware that not everybody has it as sweet as you'?
  - rosser 13y ago
    The latter. The world looks markedly different, and one has a radically different experience of it, if one wasn't fortunate enough to have won the "born the 'right' {sex, race, orientation, nationality, &c} lottery". Reminding yourself of that on a regular basis helps keep you sympathetic to folks who don't have it, as you say, "as sweet as you."
    - omonra 13y ago
      Thank you, got it. In that case I just think it's a wrong choice of words. My understanding is that privilege is that few are born with (see this humorous commercial from the UK about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn0hFnOGnq4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn0hFnOGnq4). This usage turns it on its head - uses the word privilege to describe what majority have but a minority do not. Ie I'd say being born the son of a billionaire is privilege - but having a dentist for a dad (even one who can pay for your college education) is not.
      - rosser 13y ago
        You'll have to take your quibble over word choice up with someone other than me; I'm just using the word that feminism and critical theory have chosen for the concept in the way they use it, because language and convention. Relative to the vast majority of people on the planet, however — probably even to the vast majority of people you come into contact with in daily life — even "merely" being the child of a dentist is most emphatically being privileged. If you go to university, knowing your education is paid for, and that you won't graduate facing the next couple decades of your life shackled to productive, gainful employment, because student loan debt is one that can't be discharged, then relative to nearly all of your classmates, you are incredibly privileged. "Privilege", as the term is used in critical theory, isn't an absolute state; it's a relative one.
techsupporter 13y ago
The rest of us in IT who have to keep the infrastructure on which that code depends for its function and basic usefulness really wish we had that kind of bargaining power and leverage, especially since The Cloud(tm)(r)(llc) depends so much on that infrastructure. (In other words: Ops monkeys need love, too.)

rosser 13y ago

And that's a privilege I think we should check regularly. A lot of the flavors of libertarianism that are so common in hacker circles seem to be premised on a notion that everyone else has the kinds of power that we do to dictate the terms of our labor, and that's just not true. EDIT: phrasing.

yummyfajitas 13y ago
It's far less useful to check your privilege than it is to check if the arguments are correct. The former is an easy way to dismiss an argument without actually reading it. The latter requires careful thought and runs the risk that you might realize you are incorrect.
- rosser 13y ago
  I disagree. Even if you're fallaciously occasioned to "check your privilege", it's still a useful exercise. And doesn't writing off all such invocations make you guilty of the same kind of prejudicial dismissal you're arguing against, anyway?
  - yummyfajitas 13y ago
    So what? A privileged person can be correct, and an unprivileged one can be wrong. What do you gain by checking your privilege over checking your reasoning/facts?
    - rosser 13y ago
      They aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, they're often the very same thing. (Edit: though it's perhaps more about checking premises than argument in many cases.) Consider my original comment in this thread: is it not the case that the kinds of labor leverage that software people have aren't shared by everyone else? Is it not therefore the case that the kinds of libertarianism espoused by so many software people, premised at least in part on that leverage, don't apply to everyone else as much as they seem to think? I submit that if the developers espousing those fallaciously premised flavors of libertarianism were (able) to "check their privilege", they'd arrive at different conclusions.
omonra 13y ago
I see a marked increase in the use of the word 'privilege' and how it 'should be checked' - usually in reference to not being black/hispanic, female or gay. What exactly do you mean? Is it same as 'count your blessings' or shorthand for 'be aware that not everybody has it as sweet as you'?
- rosser 13y ago
  The latter. The world looks markedly different, and one has a radically different experience of it, if one wasn't fortunate enough to have won the "born the 'right' {sex, race, orientation, nationality, &c} lottery". Reminding yourself of that on a regular basis helps keep you sympathetic to folks who don't have it, as you say, "as sweet as you."
  - omonra 13y ago
    Thank you, got it. In that case I just think it's a wrong choice of words. My understanding is that privilege is that few are born with (see this humorous commercial from the UK about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn0hFnOGnq4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn0hFnOGnq4). This usage turns it on its head - uses the word privilege to describe what majority have but a minority do not. Ie I'd say being born the son of a billionaire is privilege - but having a dentist for a dad (even one who can pay for your college education) is not.
    - rosser 13y ago
      You'll have to take your quibble over word choice up with someone other than me; I'm just using the word that feminism and critical theory have chosen for the concept in the way they use it, because language and convention. Relative to the vast majority of people on the planet, however — probably even to the vast majority of people you come into contact with in daily life — even "merely" being the child of a dentist is most emphatically being privileged. If you go to university, knowing your education is paid for, and that you won't graduate facing the next couple decades of your life shackled to productive, gainful employment, because student loan debt is one that can't be discharged, then relative to nearly all of your classmates, you are incredibly privileged. "Privilege", as the term is used in critical theory, isn't an absolute state; it's a relative one.

techsupporter 13y ago

The rest of us in IT who have to keep the infrastructure on which that code depends for its function and basic usefulness really wish we had that kind of bargaining power and leverage, especially since The Cloud(tm)(r)(llc) depends so much on that infrastructure. (In other words: Ops monkeys need love, too.)