6 ms·

The Plight of the Employed

21 points by rosser 13y ago

notastartup 13y ago
This is a great article bringing light to the employed and how little bargaining (if any) they have in this economy. I'd say it's even worse in countries where population is several times smaller than United States and happen to be just above the border of it. I've seen so many people at my past jobs willing to "stay late" which is often beyond the 9 to 5 range. At one company I worked at, people were asked to come and work on the weekends. I used to get calls at 1 am on a friday, to commit some extra code. Someone who was witnessing the birth of their newborn baby got a call from the company about work...he quit immediately. There's so many stories I hear from people who have worked across various industries in Vancouver, BC. It's not even demanded but people's unwillingness to say no, out of fear of appearing less irreplaceable compared to their peer engineers or designers. Overtime is unpaid of course because software developers and web designers are not "professionals" and no union because somebody decided for all of us that "it's not in our interest" and that an engineer can "freely negotiate their salary". Not in this economy, at least not in this tiny Canadian market filled with exploitative employers.
- typicalrunt 13y ago
  Being from Vancouver as well, I agree with your sentiment. I also wanted to add that, due to the Y2K fiasco, BC lawmakers were able to push through an exemption to the overtime laws. Basically, if you are in IT, then you are not under most of the overtime protection laws that other workers have. See here: http://www.labour.gov.bc.ca/esb/facshts/high_tech.htm http://www.labour.gov.bc.ca/esb/facshts/high_tech.htm
  - notastartup 13y ago
    Good to hear that I am not alone in thinking this. It seems the BC lawmakers have failed to realize that what they've created is largely a slave contract for highly skilled workers. Coupled with high real estate / rent prices and BC tax on just about anything, on top of the federal tax rate is crippling. It's no wonder so many Vancouverites are house poor, especially if you are single and have no dependents to list for tax benefits or exemptions. Professional, high skilled workers who are leaving vancouver, either Toronto/New York or Seattle/Los Angeles, simply do not come back. Companies that get infused with American angel investor cash, go South and takes jobs with them. Is it just me or is BC not a really a friendly place at all for technically skilled people working in software/internet industry? People are definitely NOT laid back as rest of the world likes to believe, if not people are more cold hearted at work and ruthless when it comes to their job stability in a market where it's very tough to find a new job quickly. Sad to accept but NOT the Canadian dream I aspired for. I often catch myself thinking about the American dream these days.
    - techsupporter 13y ago
      I thought that the reasons Vancouver and nearby real estate are so expensive is two-fold: 1) People from the rest of Canada like the weather in Vancouver better, and 2) People from around the world who want to work in technology are drawn there by easier immigration requirements and the network-effect of being around other technology folks. The Seattle Times has spilled a good deal of ink about how the Seattle area is bypassed by Silicon Valley heading north to Vancouver because of immigration and work rules. If real estate prices are still going up, would that imply that both of those, if true in the past, are still true? (Not for nothing: Didn't Microsoft open a rather large development center in Vancouver for just this reason?)
      - notastartup 13y ago
        >1)People from the rest of Canada like the weather in Vancouver better I hope you are joking....its' driven up by overseas speculation in the real estate market from what I understand. Coming to vancouver for the weather won't pay your bills (at least there's no shitty weather tax compensation), and weather is a favorite topic amongst Vancouverites because the good days are so much more meaningful when it's rare. >2) People from around the world who want to work in technology are drawn there by easier immigration requirements and the network-effect of being around other technology folks. I don't know of what "network effect" there is here other than amateurish Meet-up groups where middle aged men who lived through y2k show up and talk about how they like their coffee. I think it was 7 years ago they opened. Microsoft recently closed it's Victoria location. It's a game studio here in Vancouver but Quebec holds the reigns in game development from what I gather. I used to work beside the Microsoft building, the area is pretty much void of activity apart from Asian hipsters in Starbucks. Not exactly a silicon valley or even Seattle, so I don't know where is this "network effect" that eclipses Seattle or Silicon Valley.
        typicalrunt 13y ago
        Vancouver (-area) born and bred, so I can shine some light here. It's no wonder so many Vancouverites are house poor, especially if you are single and have no dependents to list for tax benefits or exemptions. I have to laugh a little at this. I 100% agree, but just wait until you have a family. The options for shelter are either sky-high rent or sky-high purchase prices if you want to stay in Vancouver or Burnaby (the city next-door). If you want to save some money you either live in 1/2 of a house, in the basement of a house, or live somewhere musty worrying about mold [1]. Is it just me or is BC not a really a friendly place at all for technically skilled people working in software/internet industry? Vancouver isn't HQ for many large corporations, unlike Toronto so there are few big players in this area (TELUS, WorkSafe, BC Hydro, Best Buy). The other big players (Microsoft, Amazon, etc) are still relatively new. When a company like TELUS has a big project, they are a blackhole that sucks up EVERYONE. This happened 8 years ago with one of their projects. If you only stayed in the Gastown district of Vancouver, you'd think Vancouver was bustling with startups, but it's not. It's getting there, but IMHO the startup scene is still in its infancy [3]. An old joke amongst the IT consultants here is that we often see each other repeatedly circling the same big corps. It's a very very small world in Vancouver. I don't know of what "network effect" there is here other than amateurish Meet-up groups where middle aged men who lived through y2k show up and talk about how they like their coffee. I've seen this as well, which is why I don't attend too many meetups. Some of the meetups are very small (the Ruby one in particular) and I'd like to see a larger turnout. Saying that, I understand my lack of participation is what is causing part of the low turnout (in my case it is also an issue of travel distance). real estate As for the real estate situation in Vancouver (and Canada, in general), there is so many variables at play that there isn't one solid answer. There is the foreign menace buying up our real estate that is portrayed by realtors and the MSM, but the stats (there are few) show otherwise (<10%). Most of the cause is our (Canadians, I mean) own doing due to the low emergency interest rates. Instead of people using the low interest rates to get out of debt, they instead gorged on more real estate. Thus you see people attempting to carry their residential debts (mortgage, interest, taxes) by seeking ever higher rates. Add into that the realtor lie (carried by the MSM) that housing only goes up and you get people flipping houses to each other for ever higher prices (and thus, rents). If you want to know how it all ends, just read up on the US housing/credit crisis circa 2008. If you are a skeptic that thinks this can't happen in Canada, read up on what happened in 1980-1 or 1990-1, the same housing drop happened then [2]. [1] This isn't just a colloquial joke. Because Vancouver is technically classified as a temperate rainforest, we enjoy much much MUCH more rain than other places, with very nominal temperatures. If there is any defect in the building envelope, you will get mold. [2] But without the low interest rates or credit crisis, so this will be a big new player. [3] Part of the reason (from what I've heard) is the sky-high office rent in the area. It takes a huge chunk of the operating budget.
- alan_cx 13y ago
  I find it a disgusting abuse to expect people to work for no money, even it is called voluntary over time. From what I can tell, its part time slavery. Such employees give this time essentially out of fear. Its a coercion. One reason slaves didnt escape was fear. Same for such employees. No, obviously not on the same level, but the principle is exactly the same. As I have said several times before; the day I can require and expect my employer to hand out free money on demand, because times are hard for me, or what ever excuse, is the day I give them free time. Go on, try it. Ask your employer for some money for nothing. Tell the economy is tanking and times are hard for your family. See if they write a cheque.
argonaut 13y ago
Interesting that this is posted to HN - software developers in the US currently have historically abnormally high levels of bargaining power and leverage.
- rosser 13y ago
  And that's a privilege I think we should check regularly. A lot of the flavors of libertarianism that are so common in hacker circles seem to be premised on a notion that everyone else has the kinds of power that we do to dictate the terms of our labor, and that's just not true. EDIT: phrasing.
  - yummyfajitas 13y ago
    It's far less useful to check your privilege than it is to check if the arguments are correct. The former is an easy way to dismiss an argument without actually reading it. The latter requires careful thought and runs the risk that you might realize you are incorrect.
    - rosser 13y ago
      I disagree. Even if you're fallaciously occasioned to "check your privilege", it's still a useful exercise. And doesn't writing off all such invocations make you guilty of the same kind of prejudicial dismissal you're arguing against, anyway?
      - yummyfajitas 13y ago
        So what? A privileged person can be correct, and an unprivileged one can be wrong. What do you gain by checking your privilege over checking your reasoning/facts?
        rosser 13y ago
        They aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, they're often the very same thing. (Edit: though it's perhaps more about checking premises than argument in many cases.) Consider my original comment in this thread: is it not the case that the kinds of labor leverage that software people have aren't shared by everyone else? Is it not therefore the case that the kinds of libertarianism espoused by so many software people, premised at least in part on that leverage, don't apply to everyone else as much as they seem to think? I submit that if the developers espousing those fallaciously premised flavors of libertarianism were (able) to "check their privilege", they'd arrive at different conclusions.
greenyoda 13y ago
"And may I suggest that employers, although they’ll never say so in public, like this situation? That is, there’s a significant upside to them from the still-weak economy." If the economy ever turns around (and I'm hopeful that it will), this will come back to bite the employers. A large percentage of employees are dissatisfied with their current jobs are are only staying there because of the difficult job market.[1] When the job market improves, companies will have a hard time filling all the positions of the abused employees who'll suddenly start leaving in droves. (Or they'll have to offer significant raises to bribe them to stay.) Also, isn't Krugman pretty much stating the obvious in this article (employees have low bargaining power in a poor economy)? [1] http://www.nbcnews.com/id/17348695/ns/business-careers/t/americans-hate-their-jobs-more-ever/ http://www.nbcnews.com/id/17348695/ns/business-careers/t/ame...
- vampirechicken 13y ago
  and the cycle will repeat. all those vacancies arising from the departure of disgruntled employees, being filled by new employees, disgruntled elsewhere, but soon to be disgruntled at the new shop, because the shop will never change. Management must always believe themselves to be infallible, and beyond the reproach of the rank and file. Employees who vote with their feet are 'disloyal'. Why is that? The fundamental power imbalance in the employer/employee relationship. You're always lucky if you can find somebody who worked for a place that's hiring and can find out their opinion. Places can't fill open positions for a reason. Sometimes it's because they just won't pay. But other times, it's because they've garnered a reputation as not being a particularly good place to work. They'll just end up lowering their standards until they attract somebody in their hiring range, and then (mis)treat them just as they did their predecessor, until they too leave. and in their managerial meetings, they'll complain about the workers.

21 points by rosser 13y ago

This is a great article bringing light to the employed and how little bargaining (if any) they have in this economy. I'd say it's even worse in countries where population is several times smaller than United States and happen to be just above the border of it. I've seen so many people at my past jobs willing to "stay late" which is often beyond the 9 to 5 range. At one company I worked at, people were asked to come and work on the weekends. I used to get calls at 1 am on a friday, to commit some extra code. Someone who was witnessing the birth of their newborn baby got a call from the company about work...he quit immediately. There's so many stories I hear from people who have worked across various industries in Vancouver, BC. It's not even demanded but people's unwillingness to say no, out of fear of appearing less irreplaceable compared to their peer engineers or designers. Overtime is unpaid of course because software developers and web designers are not "professionals" and no union because somebody decided for all of us that "it's not in our interest" and that an engineer can "freely negotiate their salary". Not in this economy, at least not in this tiny Canadian market filled with exploitative employers.

typicalrunt 13y ago
Being from Vancouver as well, I agree with your sentiment. I also wanted to add that, due to the Y2K fiasco, BC lawmakers were able to push through an exemption to the overtime laws. Basically, if you are in IT, then you are not under most of the overtime protection laws that other workers have. See here: http://www.labour.gov.bc.ca/esb/facshts/high_tech.htm http://www.labour.gov.bc.ca/esb/facshts/high_tech.htm
- notastartup 13y ago
  Good to hear that I am not alone in thinking this. It seems the BC lawmakers have failed to realize that what they've created is largely a slave contract for highly skilled workers. Coupled with high real estate / rent prices and BC tax on just about anything, on top of the federal tax rate is crippling. It's no wonder so many Vancouverites are house poor, especially if you are single and have no dependents to list for tax benefits or exemptions. Professional, high skilled workers who are leaving vancouver, either Toronto/New York or Seattle/Los Angeles, simply do not come back. Companies that get infused with American angel investor cash, go South and takes jobs with them. Is it just me or is BC not a really a friendly place at all for technically skilled people working in software/internet industry? People are definitely NOT laid back as rest of the world likes to believe, if not people are more cold hearted at work and ruthless when it comes to their job stability in a market where it's very tough to find a new job quickly. Sad to accept but NOT the Canadian dream I aspired for. I often catch myself thinking about the American dream these days.
  - techsupporter 13y ago
    I thought that the reasons Vancouver and nearby real estate are so expensive is two-fold: 1) People from the rest of Canada like the weather in Vancouver better, and 2) People from around the world who want to work in technology are drawn there by easier immigration requirements and the network-effect of being around other technology folks. The Seattle Times has spilled a good deal of ink about how the Seattle area is bypassed by Silicon Valley heading north to Vancouver because of immigration and work rules. If real estate prices are still going up, would that imply that both of those, if true in the past, are still true? (Not for nothing: Didn't Microsoft open a rather large development center in Vancouver for just this reason?)
    - notastartup 13y ago
      >1)People from the rest of Canada like the weather in Vancouver better I hope you are joking....its' driven up by overseas speculation in the real estate market from what I understand. Coming to vancouver for the weather won't pay your bills (at least there's no shitty weather tax compensation), and weather is a favorite topic amongst Vancouverites because the good days are so much more meaningful when it's rare. >2) People from around the world who want to work in technology are drawn there by easier immigration requirements and the network-effect of being around other technology folks. I don't know of what "network effect" there is here other than amateurish Meet-up groups where middle aged men who lived through y2k show up and talk about how they like their coffee. I think it was 7 years ago they opened. Microsoft recently closed it's Victoria location. It's a game studio here in Vancouver but Quebec holds the reigns in game development from what I gather. I used to work beside the Microsoft building, the area is pretty much void of activity apart from Asian hipsters in Starbucks. Not exactly a silicon valley or even Seattle, so I don't know where is this "network effect" that eclipses Seattle or Silicon Valley.
      - typicalrunt 13y ago
        Vancouver (-area) born and bred, so I can shine some light here. It's no wonder so many Vancouverites are house poor, especially if you are single and have no dependents to list for tax benefits or exemptions. I have to laugh a little at this. I 100% agree, but just wait until you have a family. The options for shelter are either sky-high rent or sky-high purchase prices if you want to stay in Vancouver or Burnaby (the city next-door). If you want to save some money you either live in 1/2 of a house, in the basement of a house, or live somewhere musty worrying about mold [1]. Is it just me or is BC not a really a friendly place at all for technically skilled people working in software/internet industry? Vancouver isn't HQ for many large corporations, unlike Toronto so there are few big players in this area (TELUS, WorkSafe, BC Hydro, Best Buy). The other big players (Microsoft, Amazon, etc) are still relatively new. When a company like TELUS has a big project, they are a blackhole that sucks up EVERYONE. This happened 8 years ago with one of their projects. If you only stayed in the Gastown district of Vancouver, you'd think Vancouver was bustling with startups, but it's not. It's getting there, but IMHO the startup scene is still in its infancy [3]. An old joke amongst the IT consultants here is that we often see each other repeatedly circling the same big corps. It's a very very small world in Vancouver. I don't know of what "network effect" there is here other than amateurish Meet-up groups where middle aged men who lived through y2k show up and talk about how they like their coffee. I've seen this as well, which is why I don't attend too many meetups. Some of the meetups are very small (the Ruby one in particular) and I'd like to see a larger turnout. Saying that, I understand my lack of participation is what is causing part of the low turnout (in my case it is also an issue of travel distance). real estate As for the real estate situation in Vancouver (and Canada, in general), there is so many variables at play that there isn't one solid answer. There is the foreign menace buying up our real estate that is portrayed by realtors and the MSM, but the stats (there are few) show otherwise (<10%). Most of the cause is our (Canadians, I mean) own doing due to the low emergency interest rates. Instead of people using the low interest rates to get out of debt, they instead gorged on more real estate. Thus you see people attempting to carry their residential debts (mortgage, interest, taxes) by seeking ever higher rates. Add into that the realtor lie (carried by the MSM) that housing only goes up and you get people flipping houses to each other for ever higher prices (and thus, rents). If you want to know how it all ends, just read up on the US housing/credit crisis circa 2008. If you are a skeptic that thinks this can't happen in Canada, read up on what happened in 1980-1 or 1990-1, the same housing drop happened then [2]. [1] This isn't just a colloquial joke. Because Vancouver is technically classified as a temperate rainforest, we enjoy much much MUCH more rain than other places, with very nominal temperatures. If there is any defect in the building envelope, you will get mold. [2] But without the low interest rates or credit crisis, so this will be a big new player. [3] Part of the reason (from what I've heard) is the sky-high office rent in the area. It takes a huge chunk of the operating budget.
alan_cx 13y ago
I find it a disgusting abuse to expect people to work for no money, even it is called voluntary over time. From what I can tell, its part time slavery. Such employees give this time essentially out of fear. Its a coercion. One reason slaves didnt escape was fear. Same for such employees. No, obviously not on the same level, but the principle is exactly the same. As I have said several times before; the day I can require and expect my employer to hand out free money on demand, because times are hard for me, or what ever excuse, is the day I give them free time. Go on, try it. Ask your employer for some money for nothing. Tell the economy is tanking and times are hard for your family. See if they write a cheque.

argonaut 13y ago

Interesting that this is posted to HN - software developers in the US currently have historically abnormally high levels of bargaining power and leverage.

rosser 13y ago
And that's a privilege I think we should check regularly. A lot of the flavors of libertarianism that are so common in hacker circles seem to be premised on a notion that everyone else has the kinds of power that we do to dictate the terms of our labor, and that's just not true. EDIT: phrasing.
- yummyfajitas 13y ago
  It's far less useful to check your privilege than it is to check if the arguments are correct. The former is an easy way to dismiss an argument without actually reading it. The latter requires careful thought and runs the risk that you might realize you are incorrect.
  - rosser 13y ago
    I disagree. Even if you're fallaciously occasioned to "check your privilege", it's still a useful exercise. And doesn't writing off all such invocations make you guilty of the same kind of prejudicial dismissal you're arguing against, anyway?
    - yummyfajitas 13y ago
      So what? A privileged person can be correct, and an unprivileged one can be wrong. What do you gain by checking your privilege over checking your reasoning/facts?
      - rosser 13y ago
        They aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, they're often the very same thing. (Edit: though it's perhaps more about checking premises than argument in many cases.) Consider my original comment in this thread: is it not the case that the kinds of labor leverage that software people have aren't shared by everyone else? Is it not therefore the case that the kinds of libertarianism espoused by so many software people, premised at least in part on that leverage, don't apply to everyone else as much as they seem to think? I submit that if the developers espousing those fallaciously premised flavors of libertarianism were (able) to "check their privilege", they'd arrive at different conclusions.

greenyoda 13y ago

"And may I suggest that employers, although they’ll never say so in public, like this situation? That is, there’s a significant upside to them from the still-weak economy." If the economy ever turns around (and I'm hopeful that it will), this will come back to bite the employers. A large percentage of employees are dissatisfied with their current jobs are are only staying there because of the difficult job market.[1] When the job market improves, companies will have a hard time filling all the positions of the abused employees who'll suddenly start leaving in droves. (Or they'll have to offer significant raises to bribe them to stay.) Also, isn't Krugman pretty much stating the obvious in this article (employees have low bargaining power in a poor economy)? [1] http://www.nbcnews.com/id/17348695/ns/business-careers/t/americans-hate-their-jobs-more-ever/ http://www.nbcnews.com/id/17348695/ns/business-careers/t/ame...

vampirechicken 13y ago
and the cycle will repeat. all those vacancies arising from the departure of disgruntled employees, being filled by new employees, disgruntled elsewhere, but soon to be disgruntled at the new shop, because the shop will never change. Management must always believe themselves to be infallible, and beyond the reproach of the rank and file. Employees who vote with their feet are 'disloyal'. Why is that? The fundamental power imbalance in the employer/employee relationship. You're always lucky if you can find somebody who worked for a place that's hiring and can find out their opinion. Places can't fill open positions for a reason. Sometimes it's because they just won't pay. But other times, it's because they've garnered a reputation as not being a particularly good place to work. They'll just end up lowering their standards until they attract somebody in their hiring range, and then (mis)treat them just as they did their predecessor, until they too leave. and in their managerial meetings, they'll complain about the workers.