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Oh wow, those comments were interesting to read. Why the hostility towards North-korean spies? That spy program must have an exceptionally low success rate give

Oh wow, those comments were interesting to read. Why the hostility towards North-korean spies? That spy program must have an exceptionally low success rate given that once you're outside North Korea, you will find out what the state of your country actually is compared to the rest of the world, and then what motication would you have to do your job? The only thing I can think of that would keep them in check is that their family is being held hostage, but that would also make all of them extremely motivated to become double agents?

blhack 13y ago
Read here about a sushi chef from Japan that worked for the Kims:http://www.gq.com/news-politics/newsmakers/201306/kim-jong-il-sushi-chef-kenji-fujimoto-adam-johnson-2013 http://www.gq.com/news-politics/newsmakers/201306/kim-jong-i...
- Double_Cast 13y ago
  Thanks for the read. The story felt surreal.
Jach 13y ago
Ever heard of the Amish? Some people aren't all that impressed with the state of the wider world or have any interest in its pleasures. Gosh, why doesn't everyone want to have the same ruling government, the same local culture, and the same new iPhone? Bellies will be full too!
- Turing_Machine 13y ago
  The Amish do that by choice. Based on my limited experience of Korean culture (I have a dozen or so Korean friends) the number of Koreans who would willingly choose to live a primitive lifestyle is....minimal.
  - Jach 13y ago
    Do Amish children do that by choice? But you missed my point. How much do you know of North Korea? Are you under the impression their culture is the same as the South's? Do you think the spies live a primitive lifestyle? Do you think these athletes live a primitive lifestyle? http://www.funis2cool.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/north_korea_stadium_show_011.jpg http://www.funis2cool.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/north_k... How many people in Pyongyang do you think live a primitive lifestyle? And if they suddenly learned of the outside world (assuming they were completely ignorant beforehand!) they would probably notice the impoverished, the starving, the homeless, the unjustly imprisoned -- in other words, the same types of problems, if perhaps of different local magnitudes. They might also notice a bunch of problems they don't have. They may even just see some of their own problems as caused by the West and reinforce their distaste. My point is that it's ridiculous to suggest one's way of living will be instantly recognized as superior by someone else one assumed to have an inferior lifestyle. It's also ridiculous to imagine no one in North Korea actually believes in the legitimacy of the government and its goals.
    - Turing_Machine 13y ago
      "Are you under the impression their culture is the same as the South's?" Korean culture is at least 2,000 years old, and yes, it's quite homogeneous. "They would probably notice the impoverished, the starving, the homeless, the unjustly imprisoned" What in the world are you talking about? Their entire country is an impoverished prison/slave-state, and it's estimated that 2-3 million North Korean people starved to death as recently as the 1990s. So, yeah, I'm pretty sure they'd see the outside world as superior. Too bad they're not given the chance to make that decision for themselves, isn't it? A good rule of thumb on whether people actually want to live in a country: go to the border and check to see how many of the guns are pointed inward.
      - classicsnoot 13y ago
        Age of the named culture notwithstanding, the cultures have become divergent in the last 40 years due to the Kim family as well as the extremist christian nationalists. You make these broad generalizations about a group of people we as "the world" know very little about. Many Jews in Ukraine were supportive of the Nazi invasion due to the awful treatment received from the Russians. Iraq was a complete wreck, and America still managed to have thousands of adversaries. There are many examples of people acting irrationally in the face of "the facts" of their situation. Your border comment is colorful but misleading. You act as if the guns are cemented pointing one direction.
- camus2 13y ago
  Are you really comparing the Amish to the north korean? Are you insane?
  - Jach 13y ago
    I think you missed my point too. Anyway, who says I can't pass "the Amish" and "the north korean" to compare() along with a custom comparator function? Apples can be compared to oranges, you know. For instance, both apples and oranges are fruit, oranges are more orange than apples...
    - moocowduckquack 13y ago
      So that would be a yes to both questions then.
      - deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
    - oxide 13y ago
      forced comparision.
    - classicsnoot 13y ago
      As someone who has spent time with Mennonites as well as Amish i am inclined to agree with you. We wonder if they see the phones and music and bright lights and get depressed or disgruntled. They wonder if we notice the insulation from emotions, they dissolution of our basic family structure, our disobedient and spoiled children, and our ballooning bodies. Perspective is a very important aspect when predicting peoples reactions, and most of the time, we amerifats are just convinced we have it better. I got your point, but it is sad to see how pervasive the western dominance ideology is, as illustrated by someone calling you insane for being unexpected. Interesting, but largely sad.
      - moocowduckquack 13y ago
        The Amish do not have multi-generational prison sentences for disobedience, you just get asked to leave. North Korea is not some peasant utopia that just wants to be left alone, it is a nuclear armed totalitarian state that constantly prepares its citizenry for a ficticious total war. As for your self titling of we amerifats are just convinced we have it better, well, this belies a core truth, many people suspect you might well have it better simply by so many people in your culture being able to get so fat. There is a massive difference from a society trying to live simply and one in abject poverty due to mismanagement by a series of crazed mass murderers.
brownbat 13y ago
1. True believers of the Juche idea are more likely to get postings abroad, and brainwashing from childhood is remarkably effective, 2. The lack of regimented lifestyle and strictly formalized social interactions can make the outside world as frightening to some North Koreans as living in North Korea would be to us, [1] 3. You must return with enormous amounts of hard currency to pay bribes to everyone involved in sending you abroad, so you're kind of constantly hustling, and probably too focused on those daily practical necessities to think about radically changing your life, [1] 4. Some spies do defect, the real defection rate probably isn't publicized by anyone on either side. [2] [1] These themes are hit upon in some of the "inside NK" lit, I especially liked "A Year in Pyongyang." A bit dated, but NK nonfiction holds up well with age, and it's all free online: http://www.aidanfc.net/a_year_in_pyongyang_1.html http://www.aidanfc.net/a_year_in_pyongyang_1.html [2] Former NK spy: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/08/29/former-north-korean-spys-memoir-details-enemization-training-conducted-by-abducted-south-koreans/ http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/08/29/former-north-korean-sp...
InclinedPlane 13y ago
Why not do research on it instead of just putting forward your uninformed opinion? As it turns out the North Korean spy program is actually surprisingly successful. It has been responsible for everything from terrorist attacks that have downed airliners (Korean Air Flight 858) to assassination attempts on the South Korean Prime Minister (Blue House Raid, Rangoon bombing) to abductions of foreign nationals so that they can be used as teachers or laborers in North Korea. And that's aside from their covert weapons trade including trade in missile and WMD technology. Iran's long range ballistic missile systems, for example, are based mostly off of DPRK technology.
judk 13y ago
This is why many (including me) believe that US's greatest defense against foreign terrorists attacking US soil is to make the US so supportive of immigrants that attackers would just defect on arrival.

blhack 13y ago

Read here about a sushi chef from Japan that worked for the Kims:http://www.gq.com/news-politics/newsmakers/201306/kim-jong-il-sushi-chef-kenji-fujimoto-adam-johnson-2013 http://www.gq.com/news-politics/newsmakers/201306/kim-jong-i...

Double_Cast 13y ago
Thanks for the read. The story felt surreal.

Jach 13y ago

Ever heard of the Amish? Some people aren't all that impressed with the state of the wider world or have any interest in its pleasures. Gosh, why doesn't everyone want to have the same ruling government, the same local culture, and the same new iPhone? Bellies will be full too!

Turing_Machine 13y ago
The Amish do that by choice. Based on my limited experience of Korean culture (I have a dozen or so Korean friends) the number of Koreans who would willingly choose to live a primitive lifestyle is....minimal.
- Jach 13y ago
  Do Amish children do that by choice? But you missed my point. How much do you know of North Korea? Are you under the impression their culture is the same as the South's? Do you think the spies live a primitive lifestyle? Do you think these athletes live a primitive lifestyle? http://www.funis2cool.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/north_korea_stadium_show_011.jpg http://www.funis2cool.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/north_k... How many people in Pyongyang do you think live a primitive lifestyle? And if they suddenly learned of the outside world (assuming they were completely ignorant beforehand!) they would probably notice the impoverished, the starving, the homeless, the unjustly imprisoned -- in other words, the same types of problems, if perhaps of different local magnitudes. They might also notice a bunch of problems they don't have. They may even just see some of their own problems as caused by the West and reinforce their distaste. My point is that it's ridiculous to suggest one's way of living will be instantly recognized as superior by someone else one assumed to have an inferior lifestyle. It's also ridiculous to imagine no one in North Korea actually believes in the legitimacy of the government and its goals.
  - Turing_Machine 13y ago
    "Are you under the impression their culture is the same as the South's?" Korean culture is at least 2,000 years old, and yes, it's quite homogeneous. "They would probably notice the impoverished, the starving, the homeless, the unjustly imprisoned" What in the world are you talking about? Their entire country is an impoverished prison/slave-state, and it's estimated that 2-3 million North Korean people starved to death as recently as the 1990s. So, yeah, I'm pretty sure they'd see the outside world as superior. Too bad they're not given the chance to make that decision for themselves, isn't it? A good rule of thumb on whether people actually want to live in a country: go to the border and check to see how many of the guns are pointed inward.
    - classicsnoot 13y ago
      Age of the named culture notwithstanding, the cultures have become divergent in the last 40 years due to the Kim family as well as the extremist christian nationalists. You make these broad generalizations about a group of people we as "the world" know very little about. Many Jews in Ukraine were supportive of the Nazi invasion due to the awful treatment received from the Russians. Iraq was a complete wreck, and America still managed to have thousands of adversaries. There are many examples of people acting irrationally in the face of "the facts" of their situation. Your border comment is colorful but misleading. You act as if the guns are cemented pointing one direction.
camus2 13y ago
Are you really comparing the Amish to the north korean? Are you insane?
- Jach 13y ago
  I think you missed my point too. Anyway, who says I can't pass "the Amish" and "the north korean" to compare() along with a custom comparator function? Apples can be compared to oranges, you know. For instance, both apples and oranges are fruit, oranges are more orange than apples...
  - moocowduckquack 13y ago
    So that would be a yes to both questions then.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
  - oxide 13y ago
    forced comparision.
  - classicsnoot 13y ago
    As someone who has spent time with Mennonites as well as Amish i am inclined to agree with you. We wonder if they see the phones and music and bright lights and get depressed or disgruntled. They wonder if we notice the insulation from emotions, they dissolution of our basic family structure, our disobedient and spoiled children, and our ballooning bodies. Perspective is a very important aspect when predicting peoples reactions, and most of the time, we amerifats are just convinced we have it better. I got your point, but it is sad to see how pervasive the western dominance ideology is, as illustrated by someone calling you insane for being unexpected. Interesting, but largely sad.
    - moocowduckquack 13y ago
      The Amish do not have multi-generational prison sentences for disobedience, you just get asked to leave. North Korea is not some peasant utopia that just wants to be left alone, it is a nuclear armed totalitarian state that constantly prepares its citizenry for a ficticious total war. As for your self titling of we amerifats are just convinced we have it better, well, this belies a core truth, many people suspect you might well have it better simply by so many people in your culture being able to get so fat. There is a massive difference from a society trying to live simply and one in abject poverty due to mismanagement by a series of crazed mass murderers.

brownbat 13y ago

1. True believers of the Juche idea are more likely to get postings abroad, and brainwashing from childhood is remarkably effective, 2. The lack of regimented lifestyle and strictly formalized social interactions can make the outside world as frightening to some North Koreans as living in North Korea would be to us, [1] 3. You must return with enormous amounts of hard currency to pay bribes to everyone involved in sending you abroad, so you're kind of constantly hustling, and probably too focused on those daily practical necessities to think about radically changing your life, [1] 4. Some spies do defect, the real defection rate probably isn't publicized by anyone on either side. [2] [1] These themes are hit upon in some of the "inside NK" lit, I especially liked "A Year in Pyongyang." A bit dated, but NK nonfiction holds up well with age, and it's all free online: http://www.aidanfc.net/a_year_in_pyongyang_1.html http://www.aidanfc.net/a_year_in_pyongyang_1.html [2] Former NK spy: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/08/29/former-north-korean-spys-memoir-details-enemization-training-conducted-by-abducted-south-koreans/ http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/08/29/former-north-korean-sp...

InclinedPlane 13y ago

Why not do research on it instead of just putting forward your uninformed opinion? As it turns out the North Korean spy program is actually surprisingly successful. It has been responsible for everything from terrorist attacks that have downed airliners (Korean Air Flight 858) to assassination attempts on the South Korean Prime Minister (Blue House Raid, Rangoon bombing) to abductions of foreign nationals so that they can be used as teachers or laborers in North Korea. And that's aside from their covert weapons trade including trade in missile and WMD technology. Iran's long range ballistic missile systems, for example, are based mostly off of DPRK technology.

judk 13y ago

This is why many (including me) believe that US's greatest defense against foreign terrorists attacking US soil is to make the US so supportive of immigrants that attackers would just defect on arrival.