10 ms·
North Korean Officials Flood to China, Possible Mass Defection
- tokenadult 13y agoI've checked twice in the last hour, and so far I'm not seeing any uptake of this story by any other news organization. One of the best illustrations of what a tyrannical country the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is is the news vacuum most of the world encounters when trying to find out what's going on there. The ruling party doesn't want the common people of north Korea to know what's going on in their own country, so pervasive censorship and government surveillance make it difficult for anyone to find out what's going on there. I look forward to the day when the people of north Korea can make a transition to civil liberty and democratic, constitutional government.
- deletes 13y agoI don't know how long can they keep them ignorant, given the constant technological advancements. For example mobile phones were banned, but are legal now and a lot of people have them.
- SEJeff 13y agoYou're forgetting than most NK people are brainwashed from birth and have for 3-4 generations how wonderful NK is and that the rest of the world is so awful.
- hrkristian 13y agoI've found myself arguing that point before, but brainwashing is a difficult topic. I now think it's wrong to claim it, because while the media in PRK obviously lies with intent and that is propaganda, most there probably do not have a frame of reference, and think their situation is what it is and do the best with what they have. Are North Koreans brainwashed any more than a U.S. citizen? Here in Norway the opinion seems to say: No. But who are we to judge?
- judk 13y agoEh, US propaganda is generic "rah rah we have the freest greatest people". For example, an American citizen can read your claims about America's flaws. A NKian can't. NK propaganda is "we have the highest per capita income".
- SEJeff 13y agoI'm guessing you've never actually seen/heard any of the propaganda they hurl over the NK/SK dmz border via massive loudspeakers have you? It is pretty blatant indoctrination to a level we don't remotely come do in America. The most "indoctrination" we do in America is perhaps having children in school recite the pledge of allegiance to the flag every morning. I'm sorry, but America doesn't "brainwash" people remotely to this level: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2307937/North-Korea-Haunting-images-indoctrination-ceremony-communist-cult-leaders-threatening-nuclear-war-poisoning-generation.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2307937/North-Korea-... http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/north-korea-death-camp-survivor-1814554 http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/north-korea-death-ca... http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/4885931/north-korea-defector-on-how-state-brainwashes-people.html http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/4885931/north-... If you think America does, you are mistaken. I'm not judging right or wrong, only that people often don't choose in their own best interests. Especially if their frame of reference is horribly skewed from blatant government brainwashing.
- ballard 13y agoStill, it's an unstable arrangement that moves toward an equilibrium of more freedom, commerce... and food.
- notastartup 13y agoIt's hard to get any footage out of North Korea but Rimjingang Media employs North Korean civilians to take hidden camera into North Korea. The footage returned are shocking. http://www.asiapress.org/rimjingang/english/ http://www.asiapress.org/rimjingang/english/
- derefr 13y agoWouldn't verification of this story just require talking to the North Korean expatriates in China, though? They have no particular reason to censor their speech.
- meepmorp 13y ago> They have no particular reason to censor their speech. They're possible asylum seekers in a nominally allied state, who've (supposedly) fled a totalitarian regime that's shown no compunction about assassinating critics abroad. I can see why they'd not either make their location known, nor wish to talk to foreign media. And that's assuming the story is true.
- schuke 13y agoChina officially don't take North Korean refugees. Once you're identified there's a real risk of being deported back to North Korea.
- rbobby 13y agoExcept any family, including extended, left behind.
- meepmorp 13y agoAny family they haven't brought along are doomed anyway.
- ck2 13y agoApparently the execution was over who controls profits from their shellfish exports. You'd think they would maybe feed their people with the profits. If they get that nuclear bomb in portable form, there is going to be hell with that child at the helm.
- 67726e 13y ago> Oh and he was educated in the USA, another one we raised. Can you supply a source for that claim? I've only read into the the Kim family a bit, but my impression was that most of the family members were educated in other socialist countries or somewhere neutral/friendly like Switzerland.
- ck2 13y agoI edited that one out, I was very mistaken. Thinking of someone else.
- bananacurve 13y agoSo is Switzerland a bad place for educating him or only when it's America?
- pyre 13y agoPresumably the "we" is out of place if it's not your country.
- SEJeff 13y agoA Korean Joffrey Baratheon!
- Crito 13y agoIf they get a portable nuke, it will still be the same old shit. Even with 10 nuke tipped rockets (they have placed a satellite in orbit, in theory they can make ICBMs) the scenario does not fundamentally change for them. They either pound one city (Seoul) or a dozen, but at most a few days later they are rubble. Even in their best case scenario, hundreds of nukes on ICBMs, the most they could count on would be a 'mutually ensured destruction' draw. The only "winning" scenario they have is staying all bark, no bite. Maintaining the status-quo is the best they can do, which is why they've been doing it for decades.
- moocowduckquack 13y agoI think the image in the article may have been photoshopped though.
- henrikschroder 13y agoOh wow, those comments were interesting to read. Why the hostility towards North-korean spies? That spy program must have an exceptionally low success rate given that once you're outside North Korea, you will find out what the state of your country actually is compared to the rest of the world, and then what motication would you have to do your job? The only thing I can think of that would keep them in check is that their family is being held hostage, but that would also make all of them extremely motivated to become double agents?
- blhack 13y agoRead here about a sushi chef from Japan that worked for the Kims:http://www.gq.com/news-politics/newsmakers/201306/kim-jong-il-sushi-chef-kenji-fujimoto-adam-johnson-2013 http://www.gq.com/news-politics/newsmakers/201306/kim-jong-i...
- Double_Cast 13y agoThanks for the read. The story felt surreal.
- Jach 13y agoEver heard of the Amish? Some people aren't all that impressed with the state of the wider world or have any interest in its pleasures. Gosh, why doesn't everyone want to have the same ruling government, the same local culture, and the same new iPhone? Bellies will be full too!
- Turing_Machine 13y agoThe Amish do that by choice. Based on my limited experience of Korean culture (I have a dozen or so Korean friends) the number of Koreans who would willingly choose to live a primitive lifestyle is....minimal.
- Jach 13y agoDo Amish children do that by choice? But you missed my point. How much do you know of North Korea? Are you under the impression their culture is the same as the South's? Do you think the spies live a primitive lifestyle? Do you think these athletes live a primitive lifestyle? http://www.funis2cool.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/north_korea_stadium_show_011.jpg http://www.funis2cool.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/north_k... How many people in Pyongyang do you think live a primitive lifestyle? And if they suddenly learned of the outside world (assuming they were completely ignorant beforehand!) they would probably notice the impoverished, the starving, the homeless, the unjustly imprisoned -- in other words, the same types of problems, if perhaps of different local magnitudes. They might also notice a bunch of problems they don't have. They may even just see some of their own problems as caused by the West and reinforce their distaste. My point is that it's ridiculous to suggest one's way of living will be instantly recognized as superior by someone else one assumed to have an inferior lifestyle. It's also ridiculous to imagine no one in North Korea actually believes in the legitimacy of the government and its goals.
- valgaze 13y agoFor anybody unaware, there is a whole network of sites like this that translate native language stories and commentary into English (depends on the editors, but the content varies from serious news stories like this to silly/interesting slice-of-life stuff from reaction on internet forums). China: http://www.chinasmack.com http://www.chinasmack.com Indonesia: http://www.indoboom.com http://www.indoboom.com Russia: http://www.russiaslam.com http://www.russiaslam.com Japan: http://www.japancrush.com http://www.japancrush.com Korea: http://www.koreabang.com http://www.koreabang.com
- notastartup 13y agoHere's the original Korean article translated to English http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ko&tl=en&prev=_dd&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.segye.com%2Fcontent%2Fhtml%2F2013%2F12%2F18%2F20131218006587.html http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ko&tl=en&prev... Often South Korean newspapers are the first to get news about North Korea as South Korean intelligence groups have good source of HUMINT gathered from North Korean defectors and officials willing to give up state secrets in exchange for safety and money. There were notable cases of high ranking North Korean officials defecting to the South, for example Mr. Hwang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwang_Jang-yop http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwang_Jang-yop) and even Kim Jong-Il's relatives like Mr. Yi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_Han-yong http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_Han-yong) who was gunned down in an elevator while living in South Korea by North Korean agents.
- ChuckMcM 13y agoI'm never sure how to take these stories, but they provide a good litmus test of my emotions. I wonder sometimes if these sorts of things are 'leaked' to see if anyone inside the country will flinch and take action, sometimes I wonder if they are wishful thinking on the part of people would like to see the PRK gone. It is always unsettling though to have a nuclear power that is quite unstable near a critical resource to the work (S. Korea). So emphasizing that instability is a great tool for news services to ratchet of the fear views. Lets consider three possible scenarios: 1) I its a hoax. Ok, so far (5:30PST) the mainstream press hasn't picked it up (and they would if they had any sort of confirmation). Who benefits? Asia Press? 2) Its disinformation. So if the PRK "leaked" this to flush out malcontents in the PRK, how would that work? Would people who read this self identify as potential targets and head for the hills? (Thus calling them out as targets for the current government) 3) Its "real" And there are a bunch of high level military and diplomatic personnel in China waiting to be processed through into the country. What is the PRK reaction? Anger? Retailiation? Do they do something stupid and try to kill their missing minions in China? All it does it raise questions.
- robbiep 13y agoHow would it work to 'flush' out malcontents within PRK? It's not like they have freedom of information. How would this even be reported? Surely this information, be it true of false, has arisen from Chinese or South Korean sources
- Aqueous 13y agoPerhaps higher level officials in the North Korean government can avail themselves of uncensored Internet access? It's possible.
- barrkel 13y agoI also wonder about the degree of Western propaganda at work too. Stories about the evilness of specific regimes conveniently saturate the press before governments want to take action.
- 13y ago
- AndrewKemendo 13y agoIt's not on Chosun Ibo and that is the most reliable source for actual defections and general DPRK instability warning. http://english.chosun.com/ http://english.chosun.com/
- yongjik 13y agoChosun Ilbo might sometimes have some information, but they are basically South Korea's Fox News. You can trust them to have more misinformation than anyone else. A typical example: in 1998, Chosun Ilbo led a witch hunt against a liberal historian (Choi Jangjip) based on one of his history paper contained the phrase "...thus Kim Il-Sung made the historic decision of invading South Korea." Chosun Ilbo's rationale: only good things can be called "historic". Choi just described Kim's invasion as a historic decision. Clearly he thinks North Korea was right in starting the Korean War: he's a commie! Apparently the Korean wikipedia has a whole article on the shitness of Chosun Ilbo: http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EC%A1%B0%EC%84%A0%EC%9D%BC%EB%B3%B4%EC%97%90_%EB%8C%80%ED%95%9C_%EB%B9%84%ED%8C%90 http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EC%A1%B0%EC%84%A0%EC%9D%BC%EB%... These "conservatives" also have been saying North Korea will fall any day since Kim Il-Sung died in 1994, so take their "instability warning" with a grain of salt. Somehow the NK government keeps defying everybody's hope that it would die (or change) someday.
- notastartup 13y agoIt's basically the 386 generation (just like Intel 386!) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/386_Generation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/386_Generation in Korea, now holding the jobs as professors, teachers, politicians, lawyers and judges that arouse a lot of suspicion from the previous generation which were right wing unlike the 386 who are left wing. The 386 were largely responsible for electing a left wing government from 1998 to 2003, and 2003 to 2008. That's 10 years of anti-American, pro-sunshine policy (billions of slush funds sent to North Korea used to build their ICBM today) which has largely turned into a gun pointed at South Korea. Because of the naive blinding trust that South Korean left wings placed in Nouth Korea, it has resulted in an increasingly dangerous standoff with North Korea (supposedly has mini nukes now thanks to the 1998~2008 administration), much of South Korea understandably has growing animosity towards left-wing supporters. I admit, there is a blanket identification with left-wing being pro-North Korea which is simply not true, but this is unfortunately the case with South Korea, where herd mentality is still rampant. The fear of North Korean support within South Korea from the left leaning group is well founded. Recently, a member of the national assembly was found to have been part of a group called RO (Revolutionary Organization, how original) and evidence of coordinated sabotage on sensitive infrasturcture in case a war breaks out with the North. RO was found to have been in contact with North Korean agents in the United States. It's no wonder the 'red scare' is very real in Korea. The list of spies currently operating in South Korea is in the unknown figure but widely suspected to be hiding in plain sights (if a national assemblyman was actively promoting terrorism, imagine where else they could be). Various professors and educational board in South Korea have been caught attempting to change the history of Korean War by putting North Korea in a favorable light. The list goes on and on. However, I would agree Chosun Ilbo is the most right wing out of all. I think that there is even more chance of collapse in Korea because of the recent purge (Jang was China's go-to-guy, practical and a moderate), Kim Jong Un would be unbridled and trigger happy and that their revenue streams have taken a toll. All the more reasons to build
- revelation 13y agoWhy go to China when you want to defect to South Korea? I mean I know the obvious answer: the border between the two can't be passed. But what's in it for China to pass them on to the South? Also of course, general disclaimer: this may be misinformation by SK to help a perceived revolutionary tide.
- dba7dba 13y agoYes, that's why China is helping N Korean agents hunt down and return the would be refugees. Nah, I doubt even S Korean govt would welcome a reunified korea. The cost and turmoil will be enormous...
- igravious 13y agoHorseshit. A reunified Korea would be a global economic powerhouse within a generation, anybody with eyes in their skull can see that. And the humanitarian benefits to the entire population of the North would be immense, turmoil and cost be damned.
- EliRivers 13y agoA reunified Korea would be a global economic powerhouse within a generation, anybody with eyes in their skull can see that. Alternatively, combining a modern, hi-tech, highly educated nation of 50 million with a nation of 25 million badly-educated, borderline-starving people, many of whom would never be able to adjust, would cripple the South Korean economy for two generations. South Korea is an economic powerhouse now. Introducing an extra 50% population of which the vast majority are skilled only in subsistence-level farming with tools other nations abandoned a century ago will not be economically helpful. Maybe if South Korea was at the stage of development in which vast numbers of unskilled labourers underpinned the economy, it would be, but they aren't.
- moocowduckquack 13y agowould cripple the South Korean economy for two generations. Firstly, that is a nonsensical figure. On what basis do you make a prediction that Korea would take two generations to recover from unification? It has been split up for only slightly longer than that and if you look to history, entire empires have come and gone in the timespan of two generations. Also, it just sounds like more of the same that was said by people about the reunification of Germany.
- Houshalter 13y agoThe titles in the sidebar: >Korean Government Turns Its Back on Abandoned Babies >Korean Woman Kills Stepdaughter By Force Feeding Her Salt >Man Forces Three Runaway Middle School Girls into Prostitution Wtf humans? Not that it compares to the atrocities in North Korea.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- sifarat 13y agoI hate democracy, but I will choose it over any other method for transfer of power. The only credit I can give to democracy is, it ensures transfer of power without bloodshed and in a civilized manner, rest is all crap as we know it.
- moocowduckquack 13y agoGiven that people in general are often confused, disorganised and prone to bouts of extreme irrationality for extended periods of time and this seems to apply at all sections of society, I am pretty amazed really that we have any ways of even slightly reliably transferring power without bloodshed. Democracy isn't perfect, but neither are people when you get down to it, I mean, I used to be annoyed with how rubbish a lot of stuff is, but the more I pay attention to how people actually are, the more cheerfully impressed I am that anything works at all.
- chongli 13y agoWhy do you hate democracy?
- ballard 13y agoRegardless, gotta love how Dennis Rodman looks the other way and doesn't give a shit about people.