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This argument makes no sense. You're conflating people and behavior with tools. Bad tools make it easier to do a bad job in any field of work. Novices with good

This argument makes no sense. You're conflating people and behavior with tools. Bad tools make it easier to do a bad job in any field of work. Novices with good tools will still do a bad job. This is a weak justification for promoting bad tools.

ThomPete 13y ago
Bad tools? In what alternative universe is PHP a bad tool? It is one of the easiest to get started with, most documented, best supported and flexible tools out there for 90% of the things you see on the internet today.
- spellboots 13y ago
  Obligatory http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/ http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-de... I spent many years doing PHP. I am very glad that those years are behind me. Even if you allow for it being easy to setup - which is debatable - setup only happens once and is not very hard in any language. If you find it hard to install a programming language by following instructions, you are an amateur pretty much by definition.
  - ThomPete 13y ago
    And how do you think most people get started? As pros? Again php is great for 90% of the things that is done on the internet today and its popular exactly because it's not claiming to be more than it is and easy to get started with. No other language not even python especially not ruby does that as well. And then we haven't even talked about how easy it is to use php with javasrcipt, html and css.
  - PavlovsCat 13y ago
    Are there blog posts about how someone tried to solve an actual problem in PHP, but couldn't because the language sucked too much? You know, instead of pointing and laughing at things they saw in the manual or newsgroups that hardly matter in practice.
    - eropple 13y ago
      That's not the problem with PHP. The problem with PHP is that its design flaws cause friction that scales at least linearly and probably more like geometrically with application complexity--and it doesn't hit you until a project is of sufficient size that every change comes with more and more pain. "It's easy to start with" is only a virtue if that doesn't come with "it turns into a tire fire a year later".
      - PavlovsCat 13y ago
        Fair enough, but not every application has to be ready for huge growth. E.g. for a guestbook the fact it wouldn't turn into a tire fire should you decide to turn it into facebickr or googipedia is a rather small benefit, and if it comes with higher setup costs it's actually a drawback. Some people just scratch the itches they have, right now, not the itches their expertise makes them think they should have, or the likes of Google or Facebook make them think they might have in the future. And that is fine. Nobody is telling anyone to use PHP for their huge project, right? So why tell people they shouldn't use PHP for their mortal ones? Because at some point, down the road... can't we cross that bridge when we come to it?
        eropple 13y ago
        > Because at some point, down the road... can't we cross that bridge when we come to it? No, and that's the problem. Nothing gets rewritten, it gets hacked on. PHP makes hacking on things, past a really low bar, really hard given what you get out of it. And the early benefit washes out pretty quick once you spend more than a couple days on a project. Setting up Play 2 (or Rails, or Django) is going to take me maybe five minutes longer than rolling up a project skeleton with Composer and I immediately start reaping the benefits of a sane environment. It's probably going to take me less time to be functional with any of the above than Symfony2, and I'm not inexperienced with it. You pick your poison on day one. PHP's poison is bad for probably the 50% case, really bad for the 25% case, okay to good for the 10-25% case. (Wordpress is not part of the last one. Neither is Drupal. I don't run either on any system I need to be able to trust. Even with FPM it's too much of a pain in the ass for the benefit I get from it.)
  - coldtea 13y ago
    That's a fractal of a bad and trite article.
  - krazymelvin 13y ago
    And the obligatory response: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4177516 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4177516
- sixthloginorso 13y ago
  In a Universe where consistency, soundness, orthogonal API design, modularity and evidence that the developers gave some thought to their language is expected. I would like to believe that this is such a Universe. I mean, many of the endless list of functions imported into the default namespace were named so that their hashing distribution worked well with strlen for a hash. How much work went into working around the fact that just about the worst hashing function that you can come up with in three seconds was used? And we can enumerate such blunders all day here. There are many better languages with good tooling, and guess what, they're free. I wouldn't use PHP if I can avoid it, and there's ample chance to avoid it nowadays.
  - ThomPete 13y ago
    You are in the wrong universe mate. And you are missing the point. It's not just about the language it's about all the other things around the language. How easy it is to find a webhotel and get started, how easy it integrates with HTML, JavaScript, CSS. Of course it's ugly, but who besides a bunch of snobs and people who actually can't use it really cares? Who should care?
    - sixthloginorso 13y ago
      > how easy it integrates with HTML, JavaScript, CSS No more than any other language or product written in such. > Of course it's ugly, but who besides a bunch of snobs and people who actually can't use it really cares? Who should care? You see, this is a big part of what's wrong with the PHP community, the apathy and immaturity. How on Earth is dismissing the reasoned criticism from professional peers and academics as "bashing" from "haters" or "snobs" an appropriate response?
      - ThomPete 13y ago
        Critique is fine but it just need to be based on other things than taste. Point to a thing you cant do with PHP and you have valid criticism. Critiquing PHP because you you think it's ugly or not elegant enough is only valid if you care about such things and then you are by definition a snob.
- ytdtty 13y ago
  > In what alternative universe is PHP a bad tool? In the same universe where munging together logic and display code, or model and view code, is a bad idea. It's the same problem as using classic .ASP, except people are smart enough to not get all indignant when people point out how bad .asp was. > It is one of the easiest to get started with That's nothing special. It's trivial to get started with dozens of web frameworks. > most documented Most frameworks and languages are well documented. It's like you're bragging that you have the most well-vacuumed car seats, at a car rally. > best supported Again, this is nothing special. Most frameworks have IRC channels and mailing lists. > for 90% of the things you see on the internet today. 90% of the things on the internet are so simple that you could easily use PHP for them, like blogs, simple forums, mostly static sites, etc. That doesn't necessarily make PHP a good tool. It just shows how you can easily do trivial tasks with mediocre tools.

ThomPete 13y ago

Bad tools? In what alternative universe is PHP a bad tool? It is one of the easiest to get started with, most documented, best supported and flexible tools out there for 90% of the things you see on the internet today.

spellboots 13y ago
Obligatory http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/ http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-de... I spent many years doing PHP. I am very glad that those years are behind me. Even if you allow for it being easy to setup - which is debatable - setup only happens once and is not very hard in any language. If you find it hard to install a programming language by following instructions, you are an amateur pretty much by definition.
- ThomPete 13y ago
  And how do you think most people get started? As pros? Again php is great for 90% of the things that is done on the internet today and its popular exactly because it's not claiming to be more than it is and easy to get started with. No other language not even python especially not ruby does that as well. And then we haven't even talked about how easy it is to use php with javasrcipt, html and css.
- PavlovsCat 13y ago
  Are there blog posts about how someone tried to solve an actual problem in PHP, but couldn't because the language sucked too much? You know, instead of pointing and laughing at things they saw in the manual or newsgroups that hardly matter in practice.
  - eropple 13y ago
    That's not the problem with PHP. The problem with PHP is that its design flaws cause friction that scales at least linearly and probably more like geometrically with application complexity--and it doesn't hit you until a project is of sufficient size that every change comes with more and more pain. "It's easy to start with" is only a virtue if that doesn't come with "it turns into a tire fire a year later".
    - PavlovsCat 13y ago
      Fair enough, but not every application has to be ready for huge growth. E.g. for a guestbook the fact it wouldn't turn into a tire fire should you decide to turn it into facebickr or googipedia is a rather small benefit, and if it comes with higher setup costs it's actually a drawback. Some people just scratch the itches they have, right now, not the itches their expertise makes them think they should have, or the likes of Google or Facebook make them think they might have in the future. And that is fine. Nobody is telling anyone to use PHP for their huge project, right? So why tell people they shouldn't use PHP for their mortal ones? Because at some point, down the road... can't we cross that bridge when we come to it?
      - eropple 13y ago
        > Because at some point, down the road... can't we cross that bridge when we come to it? No, and that's the problem. Nothing gets rewritten, it gets hacked on. PHP makes hacking on things, past a really low bar, really hard given what you get out of it. And the early benefit washes out pretty quick once you spend more than a couple days on a project. Setting up Play 2 (or Rails, or Django) is going to take me maybe five minutes longer than rolling up a project skeleton with Composer and I immediately start reaping the benefits of a sane environment. It's probably going to take me less time to be functional with any of the above than Symfony2, and I'm not inexperienced with it. You pick your poison on day one. PHP's poison is bad for probably the 50% case, really bad for the 25% case, okay to good for the 10-25% case. (Wordpress is not part of the last one. Neither is Drupal. I don't run either on any system I need to be able to trust. Even with FPM it's too much of a pain in the ass for the benefit I get from it.)
- coldtea 13y ago
  That's a fractal of a bad and trite article.
- krazymelvin 13y ago
  And the obligatory response: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4177516 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4177516
sixthloginorso 13y ago
In a Universe where consistency, soundness, orthogonal API design, modularity and evidence that the developers gave some thought to their language is expected. I would like to believe that this is such a Universe. I mean, many of the endless list of functions imported into the default namespace were named so that their hashing distribution worked well with strlen for a hash. How much work went into working around the fact that just about the worst hashing function that you can come up with in three seconds was used? And we can enumerate such blunders all day here. There are many better languages with good tooling, and guess what, they're free. I wouldn't use PHP if I can avoid it, and there's ample chance to avoid it nowadays.
- ThomPete 13y ago
  You are in the wrong universe mate. And you are missing the point. It's not just about the language it's about all the other things around the language. How easy it is to find a webhotel and get started, how easy it integrates with HTML, JavaScript, CSS. Of course it's ugly, but who besides a bunch of snobs and people who actually can't use it really cares? Who should care?
  - sixthloginorso 13y ago
    > how easy it integrates with HTML, JavaScript, CSS No more than any other language or product written in such. > Of course it's ugly, but who besides a bunch of snobs and people who actually can't use it really cares? Who should care? You see, this is a big part of what's wrong with the PHP community, the apathy and immaturity. How on Earth is dismissing the reasoned criticism from professional peers and academics as "bashing" from "haters" or "snobs" an appropriate response?
    - ThomPete 13y ago
      Critique is fine but it just need to be based on other things than taste. Point to a thing you cant do with PHP and you have valid criticism. Critiquing PHP because you you think it's ugly or not elegant enough is only valid if you care about such things and then you are by definition a snob.
ytdtty 13y ago
> In what alternative universe is PHP a bad tool? In the same universe where munging together logic and display code, or model and view code, is a bad idea. It's the same problem as using classic .ASP, except people are smart enough to not get all indignant when people point out how bad .asp was. > It is one of the easiest to get started with That's nothing special. It's trivial to get started with dozens of web frameworks. > most documented Most frameworks and languages are well documented. It's like you're bragging that you have the most well-vacuumed car seats, at a car rally. > best supported Again, this is nothing special. Most frameworks have IRC channels and mailing lists. > for 90% of the things you see on the internet today. 90% of the things on the internet are so simple that you could easily use PHP for them, like blogs, simple forums, mostly static sites, etc. That doesn't necessarily make PHP a good tool. It just shows how you can easily do trivial tasks with mediocre tools.