4 ms·

And those involved in creating the iPhone (in countries with strong property laws) all entered into a trade agreement where they provided their time or skills i

And those involved in creating the iPhone (in countries with strong property laws) all entered into a trade agreement where they provided their time or skills in exchange for a certain amount of money. Bill Gates had to give 30 cents of every dollar he earned to the US government to avoid going to prison. That's domination - the threat of force if penance is not paid. Wal-mart never made anyone work for them. They simply have said we will pay $7.25 for someone's time with basic skills - if no one was willing to work at that wage they would up it. The value of unskilled labor is low.

JoeAltmaier 13y ago
Unions have another take on that subject. Wage slavery is a real thing. Its only 'free will' if there's another option available. In many early WalMart locations they placed the store optimally to starve out local small-town businesses. After a year or two they were literally the only game in town.
notahacker 13y ago
And everybody that wanted to distribute copies of Windows in the United States was forced to pay for a licence to avoid going to prison, by that same government that collected 30 cents of every dollar Bill Gates earned. Let's not pretend that private property isn't backed by force - necessary or otherwise - here. The average person has a lot less choice over whether to work for a living than Bill Gates has over whether to do business in the United States on its terms or not.
reginaldjcooper 13y ago
Just what we need, some more Objectivism. If the free market ensured that all people were given a wage that adequately reflected their value, the bottom 40% of earners would be getting more than 10% of the income. Bill Gates paid 30 cents of every dollar in exchange for access to an educated and healthy workforce, use of the interstates for shipping, use of the police and military for protection, and use of a contract law system. Microsoft then abused its wealth to "embrace, extend, extinguish;" which is sort of a perfect illustration of how consolidating lots of money gives totally unbalanced market advantages to a few entities.
- marknutter 13y ago
  > Bill Gates paid 30 cents of every dollar in exchange for access to an educated and healthy workforce, use of the interstates for shipping, use of the police and military for protection, and use of a contract law system. You make it sound as though it's a willful transaction between two parties. Yes, taxes go to those things, but it's compulsory. If I don't like Microsoft I can choose not to buy their products. If I don't like the NSA or CIA torture tactics, I can't opt out of their services. BIG difference.
  - reginaldjcooper 13y ago
    Right? But the GP was asserting minimum wage is a willful transaction also. Actually if the laborers don't like their minimum wage, they cannot opt out of it either, they need to eat, pay for housing, and get medical insurance from somewhere. It's absurd to me that someone would assert that Bill Gates is being dominated by paying taxes whereas these other people are somehow not being dominated by accepting a low wage in the same system. Also Bill Gates has the resources to change citizenship if he thinks there's a better deal elsewhere. Many of these other people would not be financially able to move to another country and work there legally. So it's definitely more willful for him than for the minimum wage workforce.
    - bmelton 13y ago
      They can't opt out of minimum wage because there are laws, not because it's otherwise coerced. There are compelling arguments in favor of abolishing the minimum wage, just as there are compelling arguments in favor of increasing it. Neither position is necessarily wrong, and each requires making trade-offs for the other, but either way, the imposition of a minimum wage is not voluntary to those upon which it is imposed.
      - velis_vel 13y ago
        > They can't opt out of minimum wage because there are laws, not because it's otherwise coerced. You missed the point. Let's get rid of the minimum wage. Suppose Alex is looking for a job, but all the jobs they can find that will hire them pay less than what they think is fair. Does Alex have a choice? No; if they doesn't get a job they will starve and die.
malandrew 13y ago
And the government invested in the Transitor, Computers and DarpaNet; all things that were enablers for Bill Gates to make his fortune. The same applies to every company that has to get their physical goods to market on the Eisenhower Interstate Highway System.

JoeAltmaier 13y ago

Unions have another take on that subject. Wage slavery is a real thing. Its only 'free will' if there's another option available. In many early WalMart locations they placed the store optimally to starve out local small-town businesses. After a year or two they were literally the only game in town.

notahacker 13y ago

And everybody that wanted to distribute copies of Windows in the United States was forced to pay for a licence to avoid going to prison, by that same government that collected 30 cents of every dollar Bill Gates earned. Let's not pretend that private property isn't backed by force - necessary or otherwise - here. The average person has a lot less choice over whether to work for a living than Bill Gates has over whether to do business in the United States on its terms or not.

reginaldjcooper 13y ago

Just what we need, some more Objectivism. If the free market ensured that all people were given a wage that adequately reflected their value, the bottom 40% of earners would be getting more than 10% of the income. Bill Gates paid 30 cents of every dollar in exchange for access to an educated and healthy workforce, use of the interstates for shipping, use of the police and military for protection, and use of a contract law system. Microsoft then abused its wealth to "embrace, extend, extinguish;" which is sort of a perfect illustration of how consolidating lots of money gives totally unbalanced market advantages to a few entities.

marknutter 13y ago
> Bill Gates paid 30 cents of every dollar in exchange for access to an educated and healthy workforce, use of the interstates for shipping, use of the police and military for protection, and use of a contract law system. You make it sound as though it's a willful transaction between two parties. Yes, taxes go to those things, but it's compulsory. If I don't like Microsoft I can choose not to buy their products. If I don't like the NSA or CIA torture tactics, I can't opt out of their services. BIG difference.
- reginaldjcooper 13y ago
  Right? But the GP was asserting minimum wage is a willful transaction also. Actually if the laborers don't like their minimum wage, they cannot opt out of it either, they need to eat, pay for housing, and get medical insurance from somewhere. It's absurd to me that someone would assert that Bill Gates is being dominated by paying taxes whereas these other people are somehow not being dominated by accepting a low wage in the same system. Also Bill Gates has the resources to change citizenship if he thinks there's a better deal elsewhere. Many of these other people would not be financially able to move to another country and work there legally. So it's definitely more willful for him than for the minimum wage workforce.
  - bmelton 13y ago
    They can't opt out of minimum wage because there are laws, not because it's otherwise coerced. There are compelling arguments in favor of abolishing the minimum wage, just as there are compelling arguments in favor of increasing it. Neither position is necessarily wrong, and each requires making trade-offs for the other, but either way, the imposition of a minimum wage is not voluntary to those upon which it is imposed.
    - velis_vel 13y ago
      > They can't opt out of minimum wage because there are laws, not because it's otherwise coerced. You missed the point. Let's get rid of the minimum wage. Suppose Alex is looking for a job, but all the jobs they can find that will hire them pay less than what they think is fair. Does Alex have a choice? No; if they doesn't get a job they will starve and die.

malandrew 13y ago

And the government invested in the Transitor, Computers and DarpaNet; all things that were enablers for Bill Gates to make his fortune. The same applies to every company that has to get their physical goods to market on the Eisenhower Interstate Highway System.