6 ms·

Jesus Christ some of the comments on that article. I wonder if there was some way to analyse what percentage of it is astro-turfing and what percentage is real

Jesus Christ some of the comments on that article. I wonder if there was some way to analyse what percentage of it is astro-turfing and what percentage is real red-blooded Americans just brainwashed into thinking government knows best. Americans you are lost. It's been nice knowing you.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
krapp 13y ago
>Americans you are lost. It's been nice knowing you. There are fewer than 500 comments on that site as of right now, that doesn't mean anything about anything. Sometimes I wonder if people are actually aware that the United States has more people in it than can fit into a single room.
- mladenkovacevic 13y ago
  It's what would in most industries be considered a reasonable sized sampling. When you then look at this poll then, things start to look grim indeed: http://www.people-press.org/2013/06/10/majority-views-nsa-phone-tracking-as-acceptable-anti-terror-tactic/ http://www.people-press.org/2013/06/10/majority-views-nsa-ph...
  - aagha 13y ago
    A reasonable sample is a function of the size of the overall population. Assuming you're talking a few million visitors in some fixed period of time, at 500 comments, you're still a little ways off from a 95 percent confidence interval and a +/-3 margin of error.
    - caf 13y ago
      For large populations it's not strongly a function of population size - a 500 sample is almost as good for a 100,000 population as it is for a 100,000,000 population (which is not very good at all).
  - prostoalex 13y ago
    This is a self-selected sample. People who read the article and thought "meh, whatever" did not bother to leave a comment.
    - TeMPOraL 13y ago
      Exactly. See also "voluntary response data are worthless" by prof. Velleman (in the tokenadult comment): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2772533 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2772533
- AYBABTME 13y ago
  If you assume the readers of the Washington Post are unbiased, 500 is a decent sample space.
  - krapp 13y ago
    But why would you assume that? Just being willing to comment on an article about Edward Snowden on a news website should suggest a bias to begin with. And then there's the poster with the avatar of Archie Bunker...
  - andrewfong 13y ago
    People who comment on the Internet are generally not a representative sample.
- Houshalter 13y ago
  You do know what a sample is right?
  - krapp 13y ago
    Yes.
jonnybgood 13y ago
I keep seeing on HN about how most Americans simply don't care about this issue and it being the reason there isn't more of an uproar. However, I have a different take: They have a different opinion than you. It's not that they don't care, are brainwashed, or "lost", it's just that they have a different opinion on the matter. Now I'm not saying they are right or wrong, but let's keep in mind that their opinion is just as valid as yours.
- morganherlocker 13y ago
  They have a right to an opinion, but that does not necessarily mean that their opinion is valid. From Wikipedia on Validity: "an argument is valid if and only if its conclusion is logically entailed by its premises."
  - codex 13y ago
    Wouldn't that make it a proof and not an opinion?
    - ramchip 13y ago
      "Government officials are vulnerable to corruption, therefore unchecked surveillance is prone to be abused and should not be implemented." This statement's conclusion does follow from its premise and it's a valid argument, but not a proof.
    - morganherlocker 13y ago
      It would make it an argument, which I guess you could say is a subset of opinion. A proof goes back to an argument and shows that its conclusions must follow from its premises.
  - HCIdivision17 13y ago
    The implication of course being that these people got their opinion from a different set of premises. Which seems to be jonnybgood's point: some people are approaching this from a completely different starting position and direction, and it's not obviously invalid. Personally I worry about how long this takes to resolve; if it takes too long, there might be enough social value drift no one will be upset by this sort of thing anymore. And that will be a much harder to fix starting point. Well, I would consider it a state worth fixing, at least.
visakanv 13y ago
> Americans you are lost. It's been nice knowing you. I think this sentiment has been expressed since the 1800s. Same criticism applied to Rome... and all human civilization, really. We are a lost species, it would seem.
- zxcdw 13y ago
  Yes, we are. Especially if we want to spin it that way. So much unjust suffering and non-optimal solutions. Then again from Darwinian view point we have been quite succesful...
toddmorey 13y ago
I love getting another perspective from European publications. However, I've come to discover that the comments section of ANY worldwide newspaper makes you lose faith in the local population.
diminoten 13y ago
Most Americans, and I'd wager most people in this world don't understand/care about privacy as much as is reflected on HN. Given how pervasive surveillance is in most European countries, the only real difference between us "lost" Americans and the "found" European countries is that we didn't know it was going on.
sergiotapia 13y ago
If you think this is scary checkout Facebook groups such as Patriot Nation. It's so bad that it almost looks like satire, and then you visit these peoples profile pages and see they are real. People like the ones posting there, are.actually.real. Wow.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

krapp 13y ago

>Americans you are lost. It's been nice knowing you. There are fewer than 500 comments on that site as of right now, that doesn't mean anything about anything. Sometimes I wonder if people are actually aware that the United States has more people in it than can fit into a single room.

mladenkovacevic 13y ago
It's what would in most industries be considered a reasonable sized sampling. When you then look at this poll then, things start to look grim indeed: http://www.people-press.org/2013/06/10/majority-views-nsa-phone-tracking-as-acceptable-anti-terror-tactic/ http://www.people-press.org/2013/06/10/majority-views-nsa-ph...
- aagha 13y ago
  A reasonable sample is a function of the size of the overall population. Assuming you're talking a few million visitors in some fixed period of time, at 500 comments, you're still a little ways off from a 95 percent confidence interval and a +/-3 margin of error.
  - caf 13y ago
    For large populations it's not strongly a function of population size - a 500 sample is almost as good for a 100,000 population as it is for a 100,000,000 population (which is not very good at all).
- prostoalex 13y ago
  This is a self-selected sample. People who read the article and thought "meh, whatever" did not bother to leave a comment.
  - TeMPOraL 13y ago
    Exactly. See also "voluntary response data are worthless" by prof. Velleman (in the tokenadult comment): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2772533 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2772533
AYBABTME 13y ago
If you assume the readers of the Washington Post are unbiased, 500 is a decent sample space.
- krapp 13y ago
  But why would you assume that? Just being willing to comment on an article about Edward Snowden on a news website should suggest a bias to begin with. And then there's the poster with the avatar of Archie Bunker...
- andrewfong 13y ago
  People who comment on the Internet are generally not a representative sample.
Houshalter 13y ago
You do know what a sample is right?
- krapp 13y ago
  Yes.

jonnybgood 13y ago

I keep seeing on HN about how most Americans simply don't care about this issue and it being the reason there isn't more of an uproar. However, I have a different take: They have a different opinion than you. It's not that they don't care, are brainwashed, or "lost", it's just that they have a different opinion on the matter. Now I'm not saying they are right or wrong, but let's keep in mind that their opinion is just as valid as yours.

morganherlocker 13y ago
They have a right to an opinion, but that does not necessarily mean that their opinion is valid. From Wikipedia on Validity: "an argument is valid if and only if its conclusion is logically entailed by its premises."
- codex 13y ago
  Wouldn't that make it a proof and not an opinion?
  - ramchip 13y ago
    "Government officials are vulnerable to corruption, therefore unchecked surveillance is prone to be abused and should not be implemented." This statement's conclusion does follow from its premise and it's a valid argument, but not a proof.
  - morganherlocker 13y ago
    It would make it an argument, which I guess you could say is a subset of opinion. A proof goes back to an argument and shows that its conclusions must follow from its premises.
- HCIdivision17 13y ago
  The implication of course being that these people got their opinion from a different set of premises. Which seems to be jonnybgood's point: some people are approaching this from a completely different starting position and direction, and it's not obviously invalid. Personally I worry about how long this takes to resolve; if it takes too long, there might be enough social value drift no one will be upset by this sort of thing anymore. And that will be a much harder to fix starting point. Well, I would consider it a state worth fixing, at least.

visakanv 13y ago

> Americans you are lost. It's been nice knowing you. I think this sentiment has been expressed since the 1800s. Same criticism applied to Rome... and all human civilization, really. We are a lost species, it would seem.

zxcdw 13y ago
Yes, we are. Especially if we want to spin it that way. So much unjust suffering and non-optimal solutions. Then again from Darwinian view point we have been quite succesful...

toddmorey 13y ago

I love getting another perspective from European publications. However, I've come to discover that the comments section of ANY worldwide newspaper makes you lose faith in the local population.

diminoten 13y ago

Most Americans, and I'd wager most people in this world don't understand/care about privacy as much as is reflected on HN. Given how pervasive surveillance is in most European countries, the only real difference between us "lost" Americans and the "found" European countries is that we didn't know it was going on.

sergiotapia 13y ago

If you think this is scary checkout Facebook groups such as Patriot Nation. It's so bad that it almost looks like satire, and then you visit these peoples profile pages and see they are real. People like the ones posting there, are.actually.real. Wow.