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I have spent the last 3 or 4 years self-studying mathematics, and what got me interested in it is essays from PG, articles by Yegge, and most of all reading SIC

by stiff 13y ago

I have spent the last 3 or 4 years self-studying mathematics, and what got me interested in it is essays from PG, articles by Yegge, and most of all reading SICP (and then reading "What is mathematics?", which in a lot of ways seemed a natural continuation of SICP). The argument he builds is really, really, weak: He invents some concepts like "Lisp tradition" out of blue sky, based on a sample of three people, who he misrepresents and who aren't even serious Lisp programmers (except PG), and then fantasizes what he thinks the "traditions" (my ass, like old Lisp masters are convincing young adepts to not learn math or something) represent, so discussing this seriously is beside the point. Is the average C programmer better at mathematics? If anything, the books introducing Lisp programming go much more into modelling complicated domains, including mathematics, compare SICP or PAIP to K&R or your typical programming intro book nowadays. Then, he seems to imply that focusing on recursion is somehow less mathematical. Recursion is a lot like mathematical induction, and inductive definitions are ubiquitous in mathematics. Also, a lot of mathematics is non-constructive and mathematicians aren't in general that interested in doing efficient computations, so it's more about knowing algorithms and numerical methods. So his big revelation reduces really to the fact that people doing numerical computations should learn numerical methods, or basically "know your domain", hardly a revelation. Or is it just a cry for programmers to learn more mathematics? But then the guys he criticizes have already done a much better job encouraging people to become interested in mathematics.

prakashk 13y ago
> "What is mathematics?" Are you referring to the book authored by Richard Courant (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0195105192 http://www.amazon.com/dp/0195105192)?
- stiff 13y ago
  Yes, it explains clearly a lot of the mathematical concepts that are subjects of some examples in SICP, and it is as rich in insights. Those are my two most favourite books ever, and studying them over a period of few years gave me as much as my whole undergraduate university degree I think.
Perseids 13y ago
For everyone else who does not know all of the abbreviations: SICP: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs - """Wizard Book n. Hal Abelson's, Jerry Sussman's and Julie Sussman's Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs (MIT Press, 1984; ISBN 0-262-01077-1), an excellent computer science text used in introductory courses at MIT. So called because of the wizard on the jacket. One of the bibles of the LISP/Scheme world. Also, less commonly, known as the Purple Book.""" (allegedly The New Hacker's Dictionary, 2nd edition) PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp - """Paradigms of AI Programming is the first text to teach advanced Common Lisp techniques in the context of building major AI systems. By reconstructing authentic, complex AI programs using state-of-the-art Common Lisp, the book teaches students and professionals how to build and debug robust practical programs, while demonstrating superior programming style and important AI concepts.""" (Amazon description) K&R: The C Programming Language - """The C Programming Language (sometimes referred to as K&R, after its authors' initials) is a well-known computer programming book written by Brian Kernighan and Dennis Ritchie, the latter of whom originally designed and implemented the language, as well as co-designed the Unix operating system with which development of the language was closely intertwined.""" (Wikipedia) (PG: Paul Graham - https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=pg https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=pg - """Paul Graham (born 13 November 1964)[1] is an English programmer, venture capitalist, and essayist. He is known for his work on Lisp, for co-founding Viaweb (which eventually became Yahoo! Store), and for co-founding the Y Combinator seed capital firm. He is the author of On Lisp[3] (1993), ANSI Common Lisp[4] (1995), and the book Hackers & Painters[5] (2004).""" (Wikipedia))

by stiff 13y ago

prakashk 13y ago

> "What is mathematics?" Are you referring to the book authored by Richard Courant (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0195105192 http://www.amazon.com/dp/0195105192)?

stiff 13y ago
Yes, it explains clearly a lot of the mathematical concepts that are subjects of some examples in SICP, and it is as rich in insights. Those are my two most favourite books ever, and studying them over a period of few years gave me as much as my whole undergraduate university degree I think.

Perseids 13y ago

For everyone else who does not know all of the abbreviations: SICP: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs - """Wizard Book n. Hal Abelson's, Jerry Sussman's and Julie Sussman's Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs (MIT Press, 1984; ISBN 0-262-01077-1), an excellent computer science text used in introductory courses at MIT. So called because of the wizard on the jacket. One of the bibles of the LISP/Scheme world. Also, less commonly, known as the Purple Book.""" (allegedly The New Hacker's Dictionary, 2nd edition) PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp - """Paradigms of AI Programming is the first text to teach advanced Common Lisp techniques in the context of building major AI systems. By reconstructing authentic, complex AI programs using state-of-the-art Common Lisp, the book teaches students and professionals how to build and debug robust practical programs, while demonstrating superior programming style and important AI concepts.""" (Amazon description) K&R: The C Programming Language - """The C Programming Language (sometimes referred to as K&R, after its authors' initials) is a well-known computer programming book written by Brian Kernighan and Dennis Ritchie, the latter of whom originally designed and implemented the language, as well as co-designed the Unix operating system with which development of the language was closely intertwined.""" (Wikipedia) (PG: Paul Graham - https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=pg https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=pg - """Paul Graham (born 13 November 1964)[1] is an English programmer, venture capitalist, and essayist. He is known for his work on Lisp, for co-founding Viaweb (which eventually became Yahoo! Store), and for co-founding the Y Combinator seed capital firm. He is the author of On Lisp[3] (1993), ANSI Common Lisp[4] (1995), and the book Hackers & Painters[5] (2004).""" (Wikipedia))