4 ms·

>This is not true at all. In cases where fathers seek custody, they have a good chance of gaining custody or arriving at a shared custody arrangement. ~18% of

by aroch 13y ago

>This is not true at all. In cases where fathers seek custody, they have a good chance of gaining custody or arriving at a shared custody arrangement. ~18% of fathers are the custodial parent. Shared custody favors the mothers in most circumstances. >60% of of fathers (regardless of custodial status) are required to pay child support to the mother. On average, women are awarded more child support than men -- Women also receive >85% of all child support paid every year. >Are you serious? When someone points out that most rapes are committed by men they aren't saying all men are rapists. Also, there has been tremendous effort to expand definitions of rape, esp. from a legal standpoint, to be more inclusive of sexual assault as it happens, whether it be to men or women and whether committed by a man or woman. Then why are we pushing campaigns to teach men not to rape but not women? Why are colleges around the US putting students through rape awareness education only telling men not to rape? As for redefinitions, feminists pushed for the recent FBI expansion that makes forced fallatio rape but not forced cunnilingus. They also pushed for the definition to be forced penetration by the accused, excluding cases where a man is forced to penetrate by the women. >Please, tell me more about how someone venting about men oppresses you. Please tell me more about derailing by insulting. >You are so obsessed with straw feminists that this is ridiculous. Like anything, there are many different voices and opinions that use the label feminism, but you seem to rather want to ignore any social problems in favor of blaming women. As usual, those voices (despite being some prolific and vocal, really being the face of feminism today) are No True Scotsman'ed out of being feminists.

king_jester 13y ago
> ~18% of fathers are the custodial parent. Shared custody favors the mothers in most circumstances. This is correct, the overall rate is low. However, this doesn't take into account rates of fathers seeking custody. About 50% of fathers seeking primary custody in divorce cases are granted such custody. It should be noted that fathers generally do not see primary custody as frequently as women in these cases, which skews the overall rate. > 60% of of fathers (regardless of custodial status) are required to pay child support to the mother. I don't dispute this. However, rates of payout are different from legal obligation to pay. Any person, man or woman, receiving child support are more likely to only receive some partial sum of child support, if any. Moreover, there is already income inequality for women in general in the US, this will have a bearing on whether or not fathers, who are statistically more likely to be better paid, have to pay child support. > On average, women are awarded more child support than men -- Women also receive 85% of all child support paid every year. As you yourself noted, women are much more likely to be performing primary custody and care for a child, we would then expect that women receive more child support then men in such an arrangement. As I mentioned before, this is a bit misleading as many people don't receive full amounts of child support or have some kind of informal support arrangement that is not court ordered. > Then why are we pushing campaigns to teach men not to rape but not women? Why are colleges around the US putting students through rape awareness education only telling men not to rape? Rape and sexual assault is overwhelmingly committed by men. Prevention messages and campaigns are targeted this way for this reason. That is not to say that they deny that women can commit sexual assault, but rather that a primary problem is behaviors committed by people who are men. Campaigns that focus on women's behavior are not addressing this fact. > As for redefinitions, feminists pushed for the recent FBI expansion that makes forced fallatio rape but not forced cunnilingus. This is not true. The new summary of the change for the FBI includes: "or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim". > They also pushed for the definition to be forced penetration by the accused, excluding cases where a man is forced to penetrate by the women. The FBI definition still has problems, for sure. It focuses far too much on penetration as rape rather than non-consensual sexual contact. However, there were a wide variety of voices, feminist and not, that noted this when the FBI made its change and are continuing to call for more change. Like I said, there are many voices in feminism, some of which call for things that are shortsighted or don't make sense. To claim that this is wholly representative of feminism is what creates a strawman. > Please tell me more about derailing by insulting. As a man you do not face systematic discrimination and power imbalance due to your gender, that is why I mentioned it. When someone complains about men online, you are not seriously impacted due to your gender. > As usual, those voices (despite being some prolific and vocal, really being the face of feminism today) are No True Scotsman'ed out of being feminists. I made no such fallacy. Those voices exist and are associated with feminism. However, they are not the total representation of feminist voices and to make it seem as though they are is not talking about serious issues in good faith.
- belorn 13y ago
  > When someone complains about men online, you are not seriously impacted due to your gender. That statement contradict itself. People commonly complain (like the above comments) when men complain about feminism. If its been a woman complain about feminism, it would be acceptable. In this specific context (a person complain about feminism), men are seriously negative impacted due to their gender.
rmc 13y ago
~18% of fathers are the custodial parent. Shared custody favors the mothers in most circumstances. >60% of of fathers (regardless of custodial status) are required to pay child support to the mother. On average, women are awarded more child support than men -- Women also receive >85% of all child support paid every year. Yes, that's the misogynist patriarchy for you. Women are no better at raising children than men. But in Old-Fashioned-Patriarchy-Land, people think women are "naturally" better and men are "naturally" worse. It's called "benevolent sexism".
- belorn 13y ago
  And when feminists support that model of "benevolent sexism", they indirectly support a misogynistic society. Or we could always redefine that no true feminist would ever say that a woman are more needed (or is better) at taking care of a young child than men. With public platforms like twitter and facebook, organization could easy purge members which such statements if they wanted.
  - fibbery 13y ago
    "no true feminist would ever say that a woman are more needed (or is better) at taking care of a young child than men" while I am not a scholar of women's studies, I would hazard that most modern feminists would agree with this statement.
  - rmc 13y ago
    What makes you think feminists support that model? They don't.
    - belorn 13y ago
      "Israel is one of the last countries in the world where the Tender Years Doctrine is still in force, if not the last. While the clause reflects an old world order in which mothers were expected to be homemakers and fathers were breadwinners, many feminist politicians and women's groups refuse to have it amended, claiming that the time is not yet ripe for such a change and that men will take advantage of it to put pressure on women in divorce." - http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/174956#.Urnmoq2Yn7c http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/174956#.Urn... I also read with some horror this for a self-claimed feminist: "Yet under no-fault divorce, a woman can find herself essentially a single mom, drained of family resources by court costs and lawyer fees, and suddenly required to work against her will and sacrifice time with her children." - http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2013/05/10031/ http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2013/05/10031/ Hopefully all the above is today a minority view, but it should not be glossed completely over. Feminists and fathers right groups should under all circumstances agree on gender equality, which mean equal time with children and equal requirement to work in an effort to support their own children.

by aroch 13y ago

king_jester 13y ago

> ~18% of fathers are the custodial parent. Shared custody favors the mothers in most circumstances. This is correct, the overall rate is low. However, this doesn't take into account rates of fathers seeking custody. About 50% of fathers seeking primary custody in divorce cases are granted such custody. It should be noted that fathers generally do not see primary custody as frequently as women in these cases, which skews the overall rate. > 60% of of fathers (regardless of custodial status) are required to pay child support to the mother. I don't dispute this. However, rates of payout are different from legal obligation to pay. Any person, man or woman, receiving child support are more likely to only receive some partial sum of child support, if any. Moreover, there is already income inequality for women in general in the US, this will have a bearing on whether or not fathers, who are statistically more likely to be better paid, have to pay child support. > On average, women are awarded more child support than men -- Women also receive 85% of all child support paid every year. As you yourself noted, women are much more likely to be performing primary custody and care for a child, we would then expect that women receive more child support then men in such an arrangement. As I mentioned before, this is a bit misleading as many people don't receive full amounts of child support or have some kind of informal support arrangement that is not court ordered. > Then why are we pushing campaigns to teach men not to rape but not women? Why are colleges around the US putting students through rape awareness education only telling men not to rape? Rape and sexual assault is overwhelmingly committed by men. Prevention messages and campaigns are targeted this way for this reason. That is not to say that they deny that women can commit sexual assault, but rather that a primary problem is behaviors committed by people who are men. Campaigns that focus on women's behavior are not addressing this fact. > As for redefinitions, feminists pushed for the recent FBI expansion that makes forced fallatio rape but not forced cunnilingus. This is not true. The new summary of the change for the FBI includes: "or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim". > They also pushed for the definition to be forced penetration by the accused, excluding cases where a man is forced to penetrate by the women. The FBI definition still has problems, for sure. It focuses far too much on penetration as rape rather than non-consensual sexual contact. However, there were a wide variety of voices, feminist and not, that noted this when the FBI made its change and are continuing to call for more change. Like I said, there are many voices in feminism, some of which call for things that are shortsighted or don't make sense. To claim that this is wholly representative of feminism is what creates a strawman. > Please tell me more about derailing by insulting. As a man you do not face systematic discrimination and power imbalance due to your gender, that is why I mentioned it. When someone complains about men online, you are not seriously impacted due to your gender. > As usual, those voices (despite being some prolific and vocal, really being the face of feminism today) are No True Scotsman'ed out of being feminists. I made no such fallacy. Those voices exist and are associated with feminism. However, they are not the total representation of feminist voices and to make it seem as though they are is not talking about serious issues in good faith.

belorn 13y ago
> When someone complains about men online, you are not seriously impacted due to your gender. That statement contradict itself. People commonly complain (like the above comments) when men complain about feminism. If its been a woman complain about feminism, it would be acceptable. In this specific context (a person complain about feminism), men are seriously negative impacted due to their gender.

rmc 13y ago

~18% of fathers are the custodial parent. Shared custody favors the mothers in most circumstances. >60% of of fathers (regardless of custodial status) are required to pay child support to the mother. On average, women are awarded more child support than men -- Women also receive >85% of all child support paid every year. Yes, that's the misogynist patriarchy for you. Women are no better at raising children than men. But in Old-Fashioned-Patriarchy-Land, people think women are "naturally" better and men are "naturally" worse. It's called "benevolent sexism".

belorn 13y ago
And when feminists support that model of "benevolent sexism", they indirectly support a misogynistic society. Or we could always redefine that no true feminist would ever say that a woman are more needed (or is better) at taking care of a young child than men. With public platforms like twitter and facebook, organization could easy purge members which such statements if they wanted.
- fibbery 13y ago
  "no true feminist would ever say that a woman are more needed (or is better) at taking care of a young child than men" while I am not a scholar of women's studies, I would hazard that most modern feminists would agree with this statement.
- rmc 13y ago
  What makes you think feminists support that model? They don't.
  - belorn 13y ago
    "Israel is one of the last countries in the world where the Tender Years Doctrine is still in force, if not the last. While the clause reflects an old world order in which mothers were expected to be homemakers and fathers were breadwinners, many feminist politicians and women's groups refuse to have it amended, claiming that the time is not yet ripe for such a change and that men will take advantage of it to put pressure on women in divorce." - http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/174956#.Urnmoq2Yn7c http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/174956#.Urn... I also read with some horror this for a self-claimed feminist: "Yet under no-fault divorce, a woman can find herself essentially a single mom, drained of family resources by court costs and lawyer fees, and suddenly required to work against her will and sacrifice time with her children." - http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2013/05/10031/ http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2013/05/10031/ Hopefully all the above is today a minority view, but it should not be glossed completely over. Feminists and fathers right groups should under all circumstances agree on gender equality, which mean equal time with children and equal requirement to work in an effort to support their own children.