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The biggest problem I see in these articles is the insistence on using off the shelf systems. SAP and Oracle are always at the center of these deals, and they e

by a2tech 13y ago

The biggest problem I see in these articles is the insistence on using off the shelf systems. SAP and Oracle are always at the center of these deals, and they end up being disasters. If you have MULTIPLE billion dollar failed projects using COTS systems, maybe its time to step back and look at a custom system.

jerf 13y ago
To solve problems, first you have to identify the problem, then examine possible solutions to establish how the solutions will solve the problems. It is not clear to me how a custom system will solve any of the problems of the process. I'm not close enough to know, but the primary problem is probably entrenched bureaucracy that has been given no reason to change and perceives major threats-to-power if they change. A custom system seems more likely to exacerbate the problem than solve it by giving the entrenched bureaucracy even more knobs to demand they can twiddle (and knobs on the knobs, and knobs on those knobs....), though admittedly the fail is flowing so thickly here it would probably be impossible to distinguish the additional fail from the already stratospheric baseline.
Spooky23 13y ago
These solutions are highly customizable. I'm not a defender of SAP/Oracle, but I don't see how writing your own package would be any more likely to succeed than paying an ERP vendor. An ancient and creaky administrative regime like what the military has is nearly impossible to manage financially. The GAO has tried and essentially given up on trying to audit.
- mabhatter 13y ago
  the military CAN get things working when they can't write checks. They have a system that works for THAT function and has for 50 years. So it's a matter of LEVERAGE to get compliance. The problem with Oracle and SAP is that they aren't "home builders" they are parts and tools salesmen. They don't know ANYTHING about BUILDING HOUSES... they just sell the tools. even their own businesses aren't actually GOOD businesses with huge amounts of nepotism and politics. The first thing when you sign up with them (or any of the big named software vendors) is that you have to find yourself a "contractor" just like building a house. The "big famous software company" disavow any actual results, your mileage may vary, etc.... They're like the "Music Man" selling boy's bands. If you want to audit the military, that's where North Korea has the correct idea. Generals don't "retire" until the leader says they do. Start enforcing Sun Tzu style discipline to get this done... knock off a few 5 star general's heads. That'll get things done. At a minimum, strip them of private residences, and put them in boot camp barracks (complete with scrubbing their own floors) till they get this thing done.
michaelt 13y ago
The root of the problem isn't using or not using COTS. The root of the problem is the government keep hiring consultants they pay by the hour. They they act surprised when the consultants respond rationally to the incentives. Or they agree to a fixed price contract where everyone knows the government will pay you more if you say you can't deliver and threaten to go bankrupt. Then they act surprised when the contractors respond rationally to the incentives. The government needs to break projects down into smaller chunks, to mitigate the losses if a supplier doesn't deliver, you don't pay them, and they go bankrupt. Then they need to establish and enforce an incentive system where suppliers are punished, not rewarded, for failing to get the job done.
- greghinch 13y ago
  This. The tangled, incestuous web of government contracts and bids is such a colossal failure that is destroying the US government from the inside, out. It's easy to point fingers a politicians and public figures, but in reality you have a much larger network of largely hidden corporations, who's entire industry thrives on overly complex process and success by failure. I really hope the startup disruption trend in the next decade involves completely reworking how government contracts are fulfilled. If you can figure out how to crack that, the market opportunity is vast.
- VladRussian2 13y ago
  >The government needs to break projects down into smaller chunks, to mitigate the losses if a supplier doesn't deliver, you don't pay them, and they go bankrupt. Then they need to establish and enforce an incentive system where suppliers are punished, not rewarded, for failing to get the job done. that means government getting an expertise (at least at the PM level) in that specific domain. While it wouldn't be a bad thing (and actually a very positive shift vs. current state of affairs), it would immediately hit the typical "government shouldn't be in the <insert specific domain> business". Anyway, just to cheer you up - compare US Gov / DOD corruption & waste to the cost (i.e basically plunder) of Sochi Olympics in Russia. While making great strides, USG has still long way to go before making into top corruption league :)
- tomohawk 13y ago
mabhatter 13y ago
no, the problem is "encouragement". When they passed Sarbane-Oxley they gave corporate executives just a few years to implement it. Don't implement it and we DELIST your stock. Implement it WRONG and go to jail. Needless to say, public traded companies worked VERY QUICKLY to get it done and fired people at will if they were in the way. when the military needed to PAY people.... they got the job done well. that system celebrated 50 years of service getting checks out. So it's just a matter of getting all those disparate systems in line with the check writing system. Just nobody has the political will to accomplish it. This is where the commander in chief not being able to summarily execute people in the military has it's drawbacks.. cause that's how Sun Tzu got the palace maids to properly military drill... do it right or get killed. Oldie but goodie.

by a2tech 13y ago

jerf 13y ago

To solve problems, first you have to identify the problem, then examine possible solutions to establish how the solutions will solve the problems. It is not clear to me how a custom system will solve any of the problems of the process. I'm not close enough to know, but the primary problem is probably entrenched bureaucracy that has been given no reason to change and perceives major threats-to-power if they change. A custom system seems more likely to exacerbate the problem than solve it by giving the entrenched bureaucracy even more knobs to demand they can twiddle (and knobs on the knobs, and knobs on those knobs....), though admittedly the fail is flowing so thickly here it would probably be impossible to distinguish the additional fail from the already stratospheric baseline.

Spooky23 13y ago

These solutions are highly customizable. I'm not a defender of SAP/Oracle, but I don't see how writing your own package would be any more likely to succeed than paying an ERP vendor. An ancient and creaky administrative regime like what the military has is nearly impossible to manage financially. The GAO has tried and essentially given up on trying to audit.

mabhatter 13y ago
the military CAN get things working when they can't write checks. They have a system that works for THAT function and has for 50 years. So it's a matter of LEVERAGE to get compliance. The problem with Oracle and SAP is that they aren't "home builders" they are parts and tools salesmen. They don't know ANYTHING about BUILDING HOUSES... they just sell the tools. even their own businesses aren't actually GOOD businesses with huge amounts of nepotism and politics. The first thing when you sign up with them (or any of the big named software vendors) is that you have to find yourself a "contractor" just like building a house. The "big famous software company" disavow any actual results, your mileage may vary, etc.... They're like the "Music Man" selling boy's bands. If you want to audit the military, that's where North Korea has the correct idea. Generals don't "retire" until the leader says they do. Start enforcing Sun Tzu style discipline to get this done... knock off a few 5 star general's heads. That'll get things done. At a minimum, strip them of private residences, and put them in boot camp barracks (complete with scrubbing their own floors) till they get this thing done.

michaelt 13y ago

The root of the problem isn't using or not using COTS. The root of the problem is the government keep hiring consultants they pay by the hour. They they act surprised when the consultants respond rationally to the incentives. Or they agree to a fixed price contract where everyone knows the government will pay you more if you say you can't deliver and threaten to go bankrupt. Then they act surprised when the contractors respond rationally to the incentives. The government needs to break projects down into smaller chunks, to mitigate the losses if a supplier doesn't deliver, you don't pay them, and they go bankrupt. Then they need to establish and enforce an incentive system where suppliers are punished, not rewarded, for failing to get the job done.

greghinch 13y ago
This. The tangled, incestuous web of government contracts and bids is such a colossal failure that is destroying the US government from the inside, out. It's easy to point fingers a politicians and public figures, but in reality you have a much larger network of largely hidden corporations, who's entire industry thrives on overly complex process and success by failure. I really hope the startup disruption trend in the next decade involves completely reworking how government contracts are fulfilled. If you can figure out how to crack that, the market opportunity is vast.
VladRussian2 13y ago
>The government needs to break projects down into smaller chunks, to mitigate the losses if a supplier doesn't deliver, you don't pay them, and they go bankrupt. Then they need to establish and enforce an incentive system where suppliers are punished, not rewarded, for failing to get the job done. that means government getting an expertise (at least at the PM level) in that specific domain. While it wouldn't be a bad thing (and actually a very positive shift vs. current state of affairs), it would immediately hit the typical "government shouldn't be in the <insert specific domain> business". Anyway, just to cheer you up - compare US Gov / DOD corruption & waste to the cost (i.e basically plunder) of Sochi Olympics in Russia. While making great strides, USG has still long way to go before making into top corruption league :)
tomohawk 13y ago

mabhatter 13y ago

no, the problem is "encouragement". When they passed Sarbane-Oxley they gave corporate executives just a few years to implement it. Don't implement it and we DELIST your stock. Implement it WRONG and go to jail. Needless to say, public traded companies worked VERY QUICKLY to get it done and fired people at will if they were in the way. when the military needed to PAY people.... they got the job done well. that system celebrated 50 years of service getting checks out. So it's just a matter of getting all those disparate systems in line with the check writing system. Just nobody has the political will to accomplish it. This is where the commander in chief not being able to summarily execute people in the military has it's drawbacks.. cause that's how Sun Tzu got the palace maids to properly military drill... do it right or get killed. Oldie but goodie.