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Can somebody explain how these 1.6L V6 engines have far more power than my 3.0L V6 car, and as much as many V10 and V12 super cars? All I can figure from the ar

by TwoBit 13y ago

Can somebody explain how these 1.6L V6 engines have far more power than my 3.0L V6 car, and as much as many V10 and V12 super cars? All I can figure from the article is the high RPM and the turbo.

TylerE 13y ago
Insanely high RPM (18k+), crazy turbos, innovative valves, super high compression ratios. Plus each motor only had to last maybe 1000 miles, and they get essentially rebuilt every time they run.
- fotbr 13y ago
  Actually, the engines (and gearboxes, for that matter) don't get rebuilt. Breaking the FIA seal means they might as well replace the engine with a fresh one, since the same penalties apply.
stevenrace 13y ago
Compression ratio and operating RPM mostly. Compression ratio (the 'squish' in an engine's 'suck,squish,bang,blow' cycle) is >~14:1. Dynamic compression (once you factor in the compression of air caused by the turbo) is much higher. This is largely due to running a higher octane fuel which keeps preignition at bay. Your typical road car has around a 9:1 compression ratio. Secondly, peak operating RPM is triple the average road car. Horsepower is '(torque * RPM) / 5252'. With the engine spinning at nearly 21,000 RPM, the neglible torque from the small displacement starts to add up. Again, your average road car sees about 6,500 RPM. Lastly, for comparison, the best road cars rarely see over 120hp/liter in normally aspirated form. And 250hp/liter on 93 octane is about the limit on well tuned turbo cars. This is largely simplified, as quite a bit of engineering is needed to get even above road car values.
bri3d 13y ago
You answered your own question. Even without exotic engineering highly-boosted turbocharged 2.0L street-car I4s can put out upwards of 500 horsepower at 7-8000 RPM. Formula One builders take things to the next level by building more advanced rotating parts and using pneumatic valve springs to allow the engine to spin all the way up to 15,000RPM with an almost linear increase in horsepower as they travel up the powerband.
- justin66 13y ago
  > Even without exotic engineering highly-boosted turbocharged 2.0L street-car I4s can put out upwards of 500 horsepower at 7-8000 RPM. I'll call bullshit on that. After whatever you've done to a stock 4-cylinder motor to make it output 500 horsepower, you've got a racing engine, with all that entails. It's not properly a "street car" part anymore. :)
  - cdawzrd 13y ago
    Not really, depending on the engine. Some engines are built sturdily enough that they can make that power without anything other than bolt-on modifications. For example, the Saab B204L turbo engines make 185 HP stock. Just by changing the mapping in the ECU, you can raise that to 225 or so. Add a new exhaust and intercooler, you're up to 280. Bigger turbo, now you can hit 300-330. Bigger fuel injectors, now you can hit 400. Keep adding more air (bigger turbo) and more fuel (bigger injectors) for as long as the engine can take it. I think the record is currently around 700 HP, which may have been done on an engine with aftermarket pistons, but still, 400HP or more is possible with only bolt-on modifications, no rebuilding of the engine internals.
    - justin66 13y ago
      That's impressive. How many miles would you expect to get out of a B204L motor making 400HP, assuming you were just keeping it on the street?
gil 13y ago
The key aspect is longevity. While engines on road going cars have to handle hundreds of thousands of Km, F1 engines only need to last a few thousands. Based on that fact and lower tolerances they can push several metrics that are key to the power output of the engine such as RPM a lot further than the automotive industry.
kisielk 13y ago
Can your engine run at 15,000 rpm? Also your engine has to last the lifetime of the car. F1 drivers are allowed 8 engines a season. Obviously totally different design goals.
- ProAm 13y ago
  Exactly. F1 cars do not take well to sitting idle for more than a minute or two, they need to be moving. They are designed to last only a few hours at peak performance before their next maintenance session.
WalterBright 13y ago
Also, the F1 engine doesn't have to last more than a few hours. This means you can put a lot more stress on the parts.
ggreer 13y ago
The high RPM and turbocharging are the main reasons. For the same displacement, an engine running twice as fast can theoretically generate twice as much horsepower. Likewise, an engine pressurized at 3 bar can produce three times more power. In reality, there are losses due to greater friction at higher RPM. Also, compressing air heats it up. If the air is too hot, it can cause the fuel to detonate prematurely. Still, the gains are impressive. The root reason for the massive difference in performance is that F1 engines have a very different set of constraints. Performance is favored over almost everything else. The budget is astronomical. The engines don't have to be optimized for mass production. They only have to run on a very specific blend of fuel. They don't have to pass emissions tests. They only have to last a few thousand miles, and it's fine if they require crazy amounts of monitoring and maintenance. A narrow power band is acceptable. And of course, they can fail in dangerous ways. A side note: production engines can still generate ridiculous power in small displacement, but manufacturers usually don't have a reason to optimize for that. In the late 80s, Japan passed a law restricting beginner motorcycle riders to 250cc bikes. Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, and Yamaha all built the most ridiculous 250cc sportbikes they could engineer. Some revved up to 19,000 RPM and produced over 50 horsepower[1]. 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_CBR250 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_CBR250
x0054 13y ago
It's much the same way my k1200r is pushing out 180HP from a 1.2 liter normally aspirated engine. RPM + flow. Most supersport bikes have even more HP on tap from a smaller engine. The key, however, is torque, that's what you want to look at. For instance, though my k1200r may have 180HP, it wouldn't do a very good job pushing around your 4 door car because it has only about 100 ftlb of torque. Torque is the rotational force of the engine.
semerda 13y ago
The magic bullet is the Turbo. Turbo helps push ridiculous amounts of pressure (psi) via compression into the motor (increasing compression ratio) to create a nice big bang to spin it really fast. But like anything that burns brighter, the wick shortens faster. So these motors won't stand more then few hours of operation vs a consumer car that is made to withstand few years. Look at rotor engines. Those were great small 1.3L motors with huge power outputs. Obviously not as reliable as piston motors. However I always wonder why humanity complicated motors and created so many moving pieces when all we had to do is build an electric motor from the start.. a magnet wrapped around a coil under current. Less moving pieces, less things that can go wrong and longer life span. Nethertheless one cannot beat the jet like sound of F1 piston engine under full power smashing down the straight!
alan_cx 13y ago
Have a look at the power outputs of turbo engines beck in the 80's. These new engines are tame in comparison.

by TwoBit 13y ago

Can somebody explain how these 1.6L V6 engines have far more power than my 3.0L V6 car, and as much as many V10 and V12 super cars? All I can figure from the article is the high RPM and the turbo.

TylerE 13y ago

Insanely high RPM (18k+), crazy turbos, innovative valves, super high compression ratios. Plus each motor only had to last maybe 1000 miles, and they get essentially rebuilt every time they run.

fotbr 13y ago
Actually, the engines (and gearboxes, for that matter) don't get rebuilt. Breaking the FIA seal means they might as well replace the engine with a fresh one, since the same penalties apply.

stevenrace 13y ago

Compression ratio and operating RPM mostly. Compression ratio (the 'squish' in an engine's 'suck,squish,bang,blow' cycle) is >~14:1. Dynamic compression (once you factor in the compression of air caused by the turbo) is much higher. This is largely due to running a higher octane fuel which keeps preignition at bay. Your typical road car has around a 9:1 compression ratio. Secondly, peak operating RPM is triple the average road car. Horsepower is '(torque * RPM) / 5252'. With the engine spinning at nearly 21,000 RPM, the neglible torque from the small displacement starts to add up. Again, your average road car sees about 6,500 RPM. Lastly, for comparison, the best road cars rarely see over 120hp/liter in normally aspirated form. And 250hp/liter on 93 octane is about the limit on well tuned turbo cars. This is largely simplified, as quite a bit of engineering is needed to get even above road car values.

bri3d 13y ago

You answered your own question. Even without exotic engineering highly-boosted turbocharged 2.0L street-car I4s can put out upwards of 500 horsepower at 7-8000 RPM. Formula One builders take things to the next level by building more advanced rotating parts and using pneumatic valve springs to allow the engine to spin all the way up to 15,000RPM with an almost linear increase in horsepower as they travel up the powerband.

justin66 13y ago
> Even without exotic engineering highly-boosted turbocharged 2.0L street-car I4s can put out upwards of 500 horsepower at 7-8000 RPM. I'll call bullshit on that. After whatever you've done to a stock 4-cylinder motor to make it output 500 horsepower, you've got a racing engine, with all that entails. It's not properly a "street car" part anymore. :)
- cdawzrd 13y ago
  Not really, depending on the engine. Some engines are built sturdily enough that they can make that power without anything other than bolt-on modifications. For example, the Saab B204L turbo engines make 185 HP stock. Just by changing the mapping in the ECU, you can raise that to 225 or so. Add a new exhaust and intercooler, you're up to 280. Bigger turbo, now you can hit 300-330. Bigger fuel injectors, now you can hit 400. Keep adding more air (bigger turbo) and more fuel (bigger injectors) for as long as the engine can take it. I think the record is currently around 700 HP, which may have been done on an engine with aftermarket pistons, but still, 400HP or more is possible with only bolt-on modifications, no rebuilding of the engine internals.
  - justin66 13y ago
    That's impressive. How many miles would you expect to get out of a B204L motor making 400HP, assuming you were just keeping it on the street?

gil 13y ago

The key aspect is longevity. While engines on road going cars have to handle hundreds of thousands of Km, F1 engines only need to last a few thousands. Based on that fact and lower tolerances they can push several metrics that are key to the power output of the engine such as RPM a lot further than the automotive industry.

kisielk 13y ago

Can your engine run at 15,000 rpm? Also your engine has to last the lifetime of the car. F1 drivers are allowed 8 engines a season. Obviously totally different design goals.

ProAm 13y ago
Exactly. F1 cars do not take well to sitting idle for more than a minute or two, they need to be moving. They are designed to last only a few hours at peak performance before their next maintenance session.

WalterBright 13y ago

Also, the F1 engine doesn't have to last more than a few hours. This means you can put a lot more stress on the parts.

ggreer 13y ago

The high RPM and turbocharging are the main reasons. For the same displacement, an engine running twice as fast can theoretically generate twice as much horsepower. Likewise, an engine pressurized at 3 bar can produce three times more power. In reality, there are losses due to greater friction at higher RPM. Also, compressing air heats it up. If the air is too hot, it can cause the fuel to detonate prematurely. Still, the gains are impressive. The root reason for the massive difference in performance is that F1 engines have a very different set of constraints. Performance is favored over almost everything else. The budget is astronomical. The engines don't have to be optimized for mass production. They only have to run on a very specific blend of fuel. They don't have to pass emissions tests. They only have to last a few thousand miles, and it's fine if they require crazy amounts of monitoring and maintenance. A narrow power band is acceptable. And of course, they can fail in dangerous ways. A side note: production engines can still generate ridiculous power in small displacement, but manufacturers usually don't have a reason to optimize for that. In the late 80s, Japan passed a law restricting beginner motorcycle riders to 250cc bikes. Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, and Yamaha all built the most ridiculous 250cc sportbikes they could engineer. Some revved up to 19,000 RPM and produced over 50 horsepower[1]. 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_CBR250 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_CBR250

x0054 13y ago

It's much the same way my k1200r is pushing out 180HP from a 1.2 liter normally aspirated engine. RPM + flow. Most supersport bikes have even more HP on tap from a smaller engine. The key, however, is torque, that's what you want to look at. For instance, though my k1200r may have 180HP, it wouldn't do a very good job pushing around your 4 door car because it has only about 100 ftlb of torque. Torque is the rotational force of the engine.

semerda 13y ago

The magic bullet is the Turbo. Turbo helps push ridiculous amounts of pressure (psi) via compression into the motor (increasing compression ratio) to create a nice big bang to spin it really fast. But like anything that burns brighter, the wick shortens faster. So these motors won't stand more then few hours of operation vs a consumer car that is made to withstand few years. Look at rotor engines. Those were great small 1.3L motors with huge power outputs. Obviously not as reliable as piston motors. However I always wonder why humanity complicated motors and created so many moving pieces when all we had to do is build an electric motor from the start.. a magnet wrapped around a coil under current. Less moving pieces, less things that can go wrong and longer life span. Nethertheless one cannot beat the jet like sound of F1 piston engine under full power smashing down the straight!

alan_cx 13y ago

Have a look at the power outputs of turbo engines beck in the 80's. These new engines are tame in comparison.