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PHP Framework Survey - short questionnaire about preferences

13 points by swader 13y ago

vezzy-fnord 13y ago
Enter the URL to your Github profile - you must have a profile with PHP projects on Github to be taken seriously in this questionairre The GitHub fallacy in action yet again. Normally you would expect developers and people immersed into technical culture (this excludes 9-to-5 enterprise developers) to be quite skeptical of mainstream solutions and not accept a one true medium. Yet in the case of where they host their software projects, the hipsters have elected a solid winner: GitHub. Ignore all other Git-based services like BitBucket and Gitorious, or... heaven forbid, version control that isn't Git. Carry on.
- CaveTech 13y ago
  Not to mention the fact that you need to be an open source contributor to have an opinion these days.
  - swader 13y ago
    Not to have an opinion, merely to prove proficiency. Like I say in the question explanation, I accept links to online sites too - even if they do only take you to login screens - as long as an app is live and exists, it's proof enough.
- mildtrepidation 13y ago
  Not only that, non-PHP-developers with opinions, no matter how well-informed, apparently aren't to be taken seriously. You must also have at least one active and public social media account. Plus, you have to have a favorite. Just one, and it's stated that this will be the only one that comes to mind for new projects. And you need to explain why you hold this incredibly narrow view of your toolset. It'd have been hard to make such an objective 'survey' useful in the first place, but the selection bias and questionable assumptions behind this one certainly make it worse than it could've been.
  - swader 13y ago
    Oh don't be a drama queen. I need a way to verify the identity of the people who answer, and I don't know of any other way than linking to existing social media accounts that doesn't involve a privacy risk. If you have other options, I'm all ears. As for non-PHP devs with opinions, you're right, I'm definitely not interested in their opinion. I want to know what the PHP devs are using, not what the well informed Ruby devs think.
  - code_duck 13y ago
    I'm experienced with php, but after reading the list and realizing I had experience with zero of the frameworks it was apparent that my input was probably not useful for the purpose of the poll. That's fine with me - the polls not about people who haven't used any php frameworks.
    - swader 13y ago
      Actually, to quote "Masters of Sex".. > Non-performance is an equally valuable part of the study If you could submit links to a non-framework app or two you've built, and elaborate on why you don't use them in your answer, it would also be tremendously helpful.
      - code_duck 13y ago
        Cool, I've done so. My hesitance is based upon performance, learning curve, difficulty of selection and perceived lack of benefits.
        swader 13y ago
        Good stuff, cheers! Very good to know
- swader 13y ago
  How else would you propose to prove proficiency? I'm open to suggestions. There's far too many "devs" who made a demo tutorial app in something and call themselves knowledgeable of the framework. I would love to expand it a bit to include more people, but I need credible answers, I don't want the results skewed because someone used a bot.
  - vezzy-fnord 13y ago
    Have them link to anything that can be considered a portfolio or proof of proficiency, be it their personal website, an account on any software hosting service or their contributions on a self-hosted SVN repository. If you're really asking this question and think GitHub is the answer, your delusions are phenomenal.
    - swader 13y ago
      I know your trollage powers are being enhanced by the awesome powers of internet anonymity but do tone it down a bit. There's no need for insults. I'll make the necessary alterations to the form.
      - vezzy-fnord 13y ago
        Alright, that's an improvement.
- code_duck 13y ago
  I assume that the poller would accept links to other sites. Personally, I have significant projects in php but have yet to find the time to participate in social open source sites. But, I bet if I posted my coded-from-scratch php startup it would be considered sufficient to demonstrate proficiency.
  - swader 13y ago
    Indeed it would, quite right
ErikAugust 13y ago
Where's Silex?
- swader 13y ago
  Added to list
ptarjan 13y ago
I'd be interested in what feedback you get, so I can make sure all the top ones run well on HHVM. Can you email me your results? Thanks (email at the top of http://paultarjan.com/ http://paultarjan.com/ )
- swader 13y ago
  This result will be published as an article on SitePoint. Feel free to follow http://gplus.to/sitepointphp http://gplus.to/sitepointphp to be informed as soon as it happens. The survey will stay online for another week.
23jio 13y ago
Github required, Social media required. Fuck that. I use Fossil SCM, I personally regard git as having one of the worst CLI's I've ever seen. But I still wouldn't impose my choice on others the way github retards attempt to.
- swader 13y ago
  There's no need for this immature hostility. I didn't call you a retard because you can't figure out how to use modern version control, and I don't appreciate being called one just because I use a certain website. Social media is required as a form of identification without invading on privacy, I don't want a bot army skewing the results. I'll make the Github link optional.
  - 23jio 13y ago
    "Social media is required as a form of identification without invading on privacy" I have some bad news for you...
tnash 13y ago
I don't use a framework, and I don't have php projects on my github, yet I've been a PHP developer since 2005.
- swader 13y ago
  Then, if you'd be so kind, could you submit a project you've built without a framework (doesn't have to be open source either - simply link to it) and state that in the answer, and put "no framework" or "none" in the "other" section?
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
porker 13y ago
> Please list all the frameworks you're proficient with, and examples of their use as proof. [..] App must exist on Github profile, or must be live somewhere online as proof. Well that rules me out - too many internal company applications, and the few that are 'live online' (without needing a VPN) would only show a login screen. And source code of any serious app I've written on GitHub? Pah - they're commercial. You've made a very small audience for your questionnaire.
- swader 13y ago
  You must have used a framework even for the internal ones, no? If not, simply file that under "other". And as for links taking us to login screens - that's perfectly fine. As long as it exists online it's ok, no need to show the source code. Like I say in the question description - either Github, or just link to a live site.
  - porker 13y ago
    Yes, but the internal ones that are behind VPNs etc - there's no way to link to those. The one where the client didn't choose such security I could link to, but that's one site out of approaching-a-dozen using a mix of frameworks...
    - swader 13y ago
      I see. Well, good to know either way, thanks for the feedback
code_duck 13y ago
Good question. I have some pretty significant projects I wrote in PHP, but as soon as my knowledge was advanced enough and I had a fresh project that called for a framework... I skipped out on PHP and chose Django. My relationship with Python hasn't worked out like I expected, though. Due to the ongoing PHP project, and use of a mixture of Python and PHP, my Python/Django skills still lag behind my PHP proficiency years later. I've written significant projects in Django, and started writing maintenance and utility scripts in Python... I can't figure out whether it's the languages or me, but I find it a lot easier to sit down and write a simple script in PHP vs Python. I've considered selecting a PHP framework to learn, but am somewhat perplexed by the profusion of choices and inadequacies I perceive in the language and each framework (such as clumsy syntax, over-complexity, lack of support for newer php features...). Overall I'm still searching for a language/web framework combination to call home. I feel like Wordpress has basically become a framework and should be included as a valid option. You can do just about anything with wordpress these days. It's the only PHP codeglob I've used significantly other than my home brewed non-framework framework.
- swader 13y ago
  This survey aims to, eventually, help with these choices. Thanks for the feedback
swader 13y ago
The survey results are now out: www.sitepoint.com/best-php-frameworks-2014

13 points by swader 13y ago

Enter the URL to your Github profile - you must have a profile with PHP projects on Github to be taken seriously in this questionairre The GitHub fallacy in action yet again. Normally you would expect developers and people immersed into technical culture (this excludes 9-to-5 enterprise developers) to be quite skeptical of mainstream solutions and not accept a one true medium. Yet in the case of where they host their software projects, the hipsters have elected a solid winner: GitHub. Ignore all other Git-based services like BitBucket and Gitorious, or... heaven forbid, version control that isn't Git. Carry on.

CaveTech 13y ago
Not to mention the fact that you need to be an open source contributor to have an opinion these days.
- swader 13y ago
  Not to have an opinion, merely to prove proficiency. Like I say in the question explanation, I accept links to online sites too - even if they do only take you to login screens - as long as an app is live and exists, it's proof enough.
mildtrepidation 13y ago
Not only that, non-PHP-developers with opinions, no matter how well-informed, apparently aren't to be taken seriously. You must also have at least one active and public social media account. Plus, you have to have a favorite. Just one, and it's stated that this will be the only one that comes to mind for new projects. And you need to explain why you hold this incredibly narrow view of your toolset. It'd have been hard to make such an objective 'survey' useful in the first place, but the selection bias and questionable assumptions behind this one certainly make it worse than it could've been.
- swader 13y ago
  Oh don't be a drama queen. I need a way to verify the identity of the people who answer, and I don't know of any other way than linking to existing social media accounts that doesn't involve a privacy risk. If you have other options, I'm all ears. As for non-PHP devs with opinions, you're right, I'm definitely not interested in their opinion. I want to know what the PHP devs are using, not what the well informed Ruby devs think.
- code_duck 13y ago
  I'm experienced with php, but after reading the list and realizing I had experience with zero of the frameworks it was apparent that my input was probably not useful for the purpose of the poll. That's fine with me - the polls not about people who haven't used any php frameworks.
  - swader 13y ago
    Actually, to quote "Masters of Sex".. > Non-performance is an equally valuable part of the study If you could submit links to a non-framework app or two you've built, and elaborate on why you don't use them in your answer, it would also be tremendously helpful.
    - code_duck 13y ago
      Cool, I've done so. My hesitance is based upon performance, learning curve, difficulty of selection and perceived lack of benefits.
      - swader 13y ago
        Good stuff, cheers! Very good to know
swader 13y ago
How else would you propose to prove proficiency? I'm open to suggestions. There's far too many "devs" who made a demo tutorial app in something and call themselves knowledgeable of the framework. I would love to expand it a bit to include more people, but I need credible answers, I don't want the results skewed because someone used a bot.
- vezzy-fnord 13y ago
  Have them link to anything that can be considered a portfolio or proof of proficiency, be it their personal website, an account on any software hosting service or their contributions on a self-hosted SVN repository. If you're really asking this question and think GitHub is the answer, your delusions are phenomenal.
  - swader 13y ago
    I know your trollage powers are being enhanced by the awesome powers of internet anonymity but do tone it down a bit. There's no need for insults. I'll make the necessary alterations to the form.
    - vezzy-fnord 13y ago
      Alright, that's an improvement.
code_duck 13y ago
I assume that the poller would accept links to other sites. Personally, I have significant projects in php but have yet to find the time to participate in social open source sites. But, I bet if I posted my coded-from-scratch php startup it would be considered sufficient to demonstrate proficiency.
- swader 13y ago
  Indeed it would, quite right

ErikAugust 13y ago

Where's Silex?

swader 13y ago
Added to list

ptarjan 13y ago

I'd be interested in what feedback you get, so I can make sure all the top ones run well on HHVM. Can you email me your results? Thanks (email at the top of http://paultarjan.com/ http://paultarjan.com/ )

swader 13y ago
This result will be published as an article on SitePoint. Feel free to follow http://gplus.to/sitepointphp http://gplus.to/sitepointphp to be informed as soon as it happens. The survey will stay online for another week.

23jio 13y ago

Github required, Social media required. Fuck that. I use Fossil SCM, I personally regard git as having one of the worst CLI's I've ever seen. But I still wouldn't impose my choice on others the way github retards attempt to.

swader 13y ago
There's no need for this immature hostility. I didn't call you a retard because you can't figure out how to use modern version control, and I don't appreciate being called one just because I use a certain website. Social media is required as a form of identification without invading on privacy, I don't want a bot army skewing the results. I'll make the Github link optional.
- 23jio 13y ago
  "Social media is required as a form of identification without invading on privacy" I have some bad news for you...

tnash 13y ago

I don't use a framework, and I don't have php projects on my github, yet I've been a PHP developer since 2005.

swader 13y ago
Then, if you'd be so kind, could you submit a project you've built without a framework (doesn't have to be open source either - simply link to it) and state that in the answer, and put "no framework" or "none" in the "other" section?
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]

porker 13y ago

> Please list all the frameworks you're proficient with, and examples of their use as proof. [..] App must exist on Github profile, or must be live somewhere online as proof. Well that rules me out - too many internal company applications, and the few that are 'live online' (without needing a VPN) would only show a login screen. And source code of any serious app I've written on GitHub? Pah - they're commercial. You've made a very small audience for your questionnaire.

swader 13y ago
You must have used a framework even for the internal ones, no? If not, simply file that under "other". And as for links taking us to login screens - that's perfectly fine. As long as it exists online it's ok, no need to show the source code. Like I say in the question description - either Github, or just link to a live site.
- porker 13y ago
  Yes, but the internal ones that are behind VPNs etc - there's no way to link to those. The one where the client didn't choose such security I could link to, but that's one site out of approaching-a-dozen using a mix of frameworks...
  - swader 13y ago
    I see. Well, good to know either way, thanks for the feedback

code_duck 13y ago

Good question. I have some pretty significant projects I wrote in PHP, but as soon as my knowledge was advanced enough and I had a fresh project that called for a framework... I skipped out on PHP and chose Django. My relationship with Python hasn't worked out like I expected, though. Due to the ongoing PHP project, and use of a mixture of Python and PHP, my Python/Django skills still lag behind my PHP proficiency years later. I've written significant projects in Django, and started writing maintenance and utility scripts in Python... I can't figure out whether it's the languages or me, but I find it a lot easier to sit down and write a simple script in PHP vs Python. I've considered selecting a PHP framework to learn, but am somewhat perplexed by the profusion of choices and inadequacies I perceive in the language and each framework (such as clumsy syntax, over-complexity, lack of support for newer php features...). Overall I'm still searching for a language/web framework combination to call home. I feel like Wordpress has basically become a framework and should be included as a valid option. You can do just about anything with wordpress these days. It's the only PHP codeglob I've used significantly other than my home brewed non-framework framework.

swader 13y ago
This survey aims to, eventually, help with these choices. Thanks for the feedback

swader 13y ago

The survey results are now out: www.sitepoint.com/best-php-frameworks-2014