5 ms·

Well, if I hadn't known about it until now, there's not much between the two scenarios for me, is there?

by wfunction 13y ago

Joyfield 13y ago
You just want to blame someone other than yourself for not knowing stuff, right?
- momerath 13y ago
  Not everyone has time to know exactly what's supported by every combination of hardware and software they use or might use in the future. Personally, I came under the impression that the major filesystems in linux (or ext4 at the very least) "supported" trim years before I actually got an SSD. When I did, it didn't occur to me that I'd need to provide an option to mount for it to actually use said support. News to me, and I've been using linux since I downloaded SLS floppies from a BBS. As it happens, I'm running Samsung's "flash friendly filesystem" (f2fs) on this machine; I hope I don't need to make sure _it_ is issuing trim instructions.
- wfunction 13y ago
  > You just want to blame someone other than yourself for not knowing stuff, right? I was going to reply with "I'm a customer, so why should I be expected to know this?" ...but then I realized you wouldn't understand the concept, since Linux is "free", I paid $0.00 as a "customer", and therefore I should shut up because I have no right to be complaining. Right?
  - eikenberry 13y ago
    If you don't care to know then you trust the provider to make the decisions for you. The fact that you found out you don't agree with a decision they made shouldn't really surprise you. It is unlikely that you agree with every decision they made.
    - wfunction 13y ago
      > If you don't care to know then you trust the provider to make the decisions for you. Yeah, and that's also how your provider convinces you to switch to a different provider.
      - vidarh 13y ago
        If you have not paid them for support, and whine because you can't be bothered to read up on the product, why exactly do you think they'd consider that a loss?
        trentmb 13y ago
        Perhaps because it ultimately means a smaller install base, which can make Ubuntu less attractive for developers and enterprises, as fewer users are already familiar with it.
  - res0nat0r 13y ago
    Ahh the old "I'm a pissed off customer because you should have read my mind" routine.
    - wfunction 13y ago
      Realizing customers want TRIM to be enabled doesn't exactly require you to be psychic, but I'll play along with the hyperbole and point you to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_customer_is_always_right http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_customer_is_always_right
      - bad_user 13y ago
        Except that: (1) you're not the customer until you pay money and since I assume you haven't paid them for support, which is available btw, you can't be the customer. (2) trim on Linux was known to cause problems with certain SSDs, not to mention for encrypted volumes (with dm-crypt, which is now offered as a painless option in Ubuntu's GUI installer) it's a security risk. For this reason, I really hope Canonical does know what they are doing, because such features are always problematic if you don't really know the hardware it will run on top of. (3) no, the customer is not always right and as proof of that fact, pick any 2 customers and marvel at their different opinions on the same topic. Obviously, trying to please everybody cannot work, ergo there is no such thing as "the customer" if by that you refer to yourself and your own opinions and that phrase is just bullshit used in marketing campaigns, as there is no company on this earth that actually believes it.
        wfunction 13y ago
        1) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6949574 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6949574 2) Well that horrifies me even more 3) "there is no company on this earth that actually believes it" well I'm glad you've checked every company
        SamReidHughes 13y ago
        Using encrypted volumes on SSD's is already a security risk without TRIM, because of the sort of information SSD firmware might store about about how blocks were written. One important piece of information would be about blocks' ages, because it's in the interest of SSD firmware to identify data which is not being frequently modified.
- nnq 13y ago
  Ubuntu is a customer/"average joe" oriented OS, Canonical spends money to actively promote it as such (!), therefore it should be fit for this purpose. I know this kind of stuff, but the average user isn't required to know this. Even if the product is free, having a default setting that shortens hardware lifespan instead of an automatic configuration for best lifespan/performance is to me simply cheating the customer. You may wave in may face the "no guarantee to be fit for a particular purpose" or whatever is written in the license, but when you are a commercial company that actively promotes a product, you are responsible to make it "just work", "by default" and to "not require me to think." ...and generally thinking, I think that we as software developers should take the "don't make me think" philosophy more seriously and ditch the "RTFM" mindset, even if we write libraries or tools that are to be used by other programmers. "RTFM" simply can't work at scale: when you use tens or hundreds of devices, apps and technologies, you just don't have the physical time to "read the manual" for all of them, so you should just be able to assume "sane / mostly optimal" defaults. And no, not even a large company can't just hire one professional that is expert in each particular technology they use, open-source or not: nobody can afford this, most shit should just work by default, and when we'll have technology that will be able to "read our minds" or "know stuff for us" we should actively demand that is does so.
  - phaer 13y ago
    > [...] is to me simply cheating the customer. You become a customer, when you start paying them. Until then you are just a user. The license which most of the packages included in Ubuntu use says: "BECAUSE THE PROGRAM IS LICENSED FREE OF CHARGE, THERE IS NO WARRANTY FOR THE PROGRAM, TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW. EXCEPT WHEN OTHERWISE STATED IN WRITING THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND/OR OTHER PARTIES", so what did you expect?
    - emiljbs 13y ago
      Who cares? The design still sucks, that's what matters.
    - wfunction 13y ago
      > You become a customer, when you start paying them. Until then you are just a user. ^ The problem with free software: you're not supposed to expect it to work correctly.
lstamour 13y ago
As a note for anyone using non-Apple SSDs in OS X, you'll need to enable TRIM yourself (free, sometimes needs re-applying after system updates): http://www.groths.org/software/trimenabler/ http://www.groths.org/software/trimenabler/ I run it on all my Macs. :)

Well, if I hadn't known about it until now, there's not much between the two scenarios for me, is there?

Joyfield 13y ago

You just want to blame someone other than yourself for not knowing stuff, right?

momerath 13y ago
Not everyone has time to know exactly what's supported by every combination of hardware and software they use or might use in the future. Personally, I came under the impression that the major filesystems in linux (or ext4 at the very least) "supported" trim years before I actually got an SSD. When I did, it didn't occur to me that I'd need to provide an option to mount for it to actually use said support. News to me, and I've been using linux since I downloaded SLS floppies from a BBS. As it happens, I'm running Samsung's "flash friendly filesystem" (f2fs) on this machine; I hope I don't need to make sure _it_ is issuing trim instructions.
wfunction 13y ago
> You just want to blame someone other than yourself for not knowing stuff, right? I was going to reply with "I'm a customer, so why should I be expected to know this?" ...but then I realized you wouldn't understand the concept, since Linux is "free", I paid $0.00 as a "customer", and therefore I should shut up because I have no right to be complaining. Right?
- eikenberry 13y ago
  If you don't care to know then you trust the provider to make the decisions for you. The fact that you found out you don't agree with a decision they made shouldn't really surprise you. It is unlikely that you agree with every decision they made.
  - wfunction 13y ago
    > If you don't care to know then you trust the provider to make the decisions for you. Yeah, and that's also how your provider convinces you to switch to a different provider.
    - vidarh 13y ago
      If you have not paid them for support, and whine because you can't be bothered to read up on the product, why exactly do you think they'd consider that a loss?
      - trentmb 13y ago
        Perhaps because it ultimately means a smaller install base, which can make Ubuntu less attractive for developers and enterprises, as fewer users are already familiar with it.
- res0nat0r 13y ago
  Ahh the old "I'm a pissed off customer because you should have read my mind" routine.
  - wfunction 13y ago
    Realizing customers want TRIM to be enabled doesn't exactly require you to be psychic, but I'll play along with the hyperbole and point you to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_customer_is_always_right http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_customer_is_always_right
    - bad_user 13y ago
      Except that: (1) you're not the customer until you pay money and since I assume you haven't paid them for support, which is available btw, you can't be the customer. (2) trim on Linux was known to cause problems with certain SSDs, not to mention for encrypted volumes (with dm-crypt, which is now offered as a painless option in Ubuntu's GUI installer) it's a security risk. For this reason, I really hope Canonical does know what they are doing, because such features are always problematic if you don't really know the hardware it will run on top of. (3) no, the customer is not always right and as proof of that fact, pick any 2 customers and marvel at their different opinions on the same topic. Obviously, trying to please everybody cannot work, ergo there is no such thing as "the customer" if by that you refer to yourself and your own opinions and that phrase is just bullshit used in marketing campaigns, as there is no company on this earth that actually believes it.
      - wfunction 13y ago
        1) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6949574 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6949574 2) Well that horrifies me even more 3) "there is no company on this earth that actually believes it" well I'm glad you've checked every company
      - SamReidHughes 13y ago
        Using encrypted volumes on SSD's is already a security risk without TRIM, because of the sort of information SSD firmware might store about about how blocks were written. One important piece of information would be about blocks' ages, because it's in the interest of SSD firmware to identify data which is not being frequently modified.
nnq 13y ago
Ubuntu is a customer/"average joe" oriented OS, Canonical spends money to actively promote it as such (!), therefore it should be fit for this purpose. I know this kind of stuff, but the average user isn't required to know this. Even if the product is free, having a default setting that shortens hardware lifespan instead of an automatic configuration for best lifespan/performance is to me simply cheating the customer. You may wave in may face the "no guarantee to be fit for a particular purpose" or whatever is written in the license, but when you are a commercial company that actively promotes a product, you are responsible to make it "just work", "by default" and to "not require me to think." ...and generally thinking, I think that we as software developers should take the "don't make me think" philosophy more seriously and ditch the "RTFM" mindset, even if we write libraries or tools that are to be used by other programmers. "RTFM" simply can't work at scale: when you use tens or hundreds of devices, apps and technologies, you just don't have the physical time to "read the manual" for all of them, so you should just be able to assume "sane / mostly optimal" defaults. And no, not even a large company can't just hire one professional that is expert in each particular technology they use, open-source or not: nobody can afford this, most shit should just work by default, and when we'll have technology that will be able to "read our minds" or "know stuff for us" we should actively demand that is does so.
- phaer 13y ago
  > [...] is to me simply cheating the customer. You become a customer, when you start paying them. Until then you are just a user. The license which most of the packages included in Ubuntu use says: "BECAUSE THE PROGRAM IS LICENSED FREE OF CHARGE, THERE IS NO WARRANTY FOR THE PROGRAM, TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW. EXCEPT WHEN OTHERWISE STATED IN WRITING THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND/OR OTHER PARTIES", so what did you expect?
  - emiljbs 13y ago
    Who cares? The design still sucks, that's what matters.
  - wfunction 13y ago
    > You become a customer, when you start paying them. Until then you are just a user. ^ The problem with free software: you're not supposed to expect it to work correctly.

lstamour 13y ago

As a note for anyone using non-Apple SSDs in OS X, you'll need to enable TRIM yourself (free, sometimes needs re-applying after system updates): http://www.groths.org/software/trimenabler/ http://www.groths.org/software/trimenabler/ I run it on all my Macs. :)