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You sound quite offended, that was not my intention. If you consider it wise judgment to pay money to spend a few hours to learn a less flexible, leakier abstr

You sound quite offended, that was not my intention. If you consider it wise judgment to pay money to spend a few hours to learn a less flexible, leakier abstraction rather than just spending the few hours, and gaining a lifetime skill, learning the high powered, free tool available, that is where we differ. I don't laugh at people who don't know something, quite the contrary, there is little I love more than helping someone grow in knowledge. I laugh at a worldview that celebrates ignorance as if it were a virtue. I have no doubt people laugh at me too, probably because I believe anyone can be better than they are, anyone can improve. I have high expectations for myself and those around me. And that, for a person who chooses a worldview that celebrates ignorance, can only be met with derisive laughter and ad hominem attacks.

mistermann 13y ago
Not offended, just tired of, in my perception, the air of absolute certainty among so many technical people. A bit beyond the scope of this particular discussion, what does offend me is when people (not you perhaps) are constantly learning these life long skills on the client's dime. Some things it is fair/correct/righteous to learn and bill as part of a project, but when it isn't, I'll take the $20 approach every time. It offends me when technical people are dishonest and insist that the "technically correct and proper" way is the path that must be taken, not the approach that should be taken. Or, they don't even inform the client of the option and just secretly make the decision to take the more expensive route. Again, not saying this is you, but it sure as hell happens. By the way, who here is celebrating ignorance? Scott Hanselman?
- JackMorgan 13y ago
  OK, I see where you are coming from now. I agree, stealing from a client, that's still stealing. When I learn new tools/skills, I learn them on my own time unless there is an explicit understanding, $20 or not. I consider such things a "sharpen your saws" sort of activity, and that is best done in isolation from the crunch of deadlines anyway. As to Scott's writings, yes, that is what I was referring to. I get a distinct vibe from some of his writings that goes like: "we are mediocre, and that's okay, let's laugh it off!" Which is odd, considering some of his other writings which strongly imply that is not really what he thinks. Perhaps he just has sharp sense of self-deprecating humor. Perhaps he is just trying to be relatable to a community not known for exploration. Either way, I feel like it confuses his message. Mountains out of molehills, perhaps, but lately I have been trying to read text more carefully, looking for worldviews, which has added a new layer of depth to even development blogs.
  - voltagex_ 13y ago
    >"we are mediocre, and that's okay, let's laugh it off!" Given Scott has been involved in such things as Tekpub (excellent tutorials site, now bought by Pluralsight) and lots of developer outreach, I don't think this is the right thing to read into his writing. >Perhaps he is just trying to be relatable to a community not known for exploration What? >lately I have been trying to read text more carefully, looking for worldviews, which has added a new layer of depth to even development blogs. I suspect you (and I) introduce our own biases when trying to gain extra context - remember text loses a lot of meaning we'd otherwise get through vocal tones and body language. Maybe try the Hanselminutes podcast?
  - mistermann 13y ago
    > I consider such things a "sharpen your saws" sort of activity, and that is best done in isolation from the crunch of deadlines anyway. Kudos to you for that attitude, and I wish it was more widespread. Too many developers lose that attitude develop a sense of entitlement not very far into their career. > As to Scott's writings, yes, that is what I was referring to. I get a distinct vibe from some of his writings that goes like: "we are mediocre, and that's okay, let's laugh it off!" I'd attribute that moreso to self-deprecating humor. You may also notice Jeff Atwood of StackOverflow fame is very modest abut his capabilities, despite affecting the technical world far more than 90% of the self-impressed people you may encounter online. However, I'd also wager that "Windows guys" don't take themselves nearly as serious as "Unix guys", at least in part because Unix guys tend to in fact be smarter, because you have to be. I mean that as a genuine compliment. But I will follow up with an "insult" - I've met a lot of too smart people (in both camps I suppose) who let their brilliance and devotion to technical correctness and purity blind out any consideration of both economics and plain common sense, which is fine if you're running your own startup I suppose, but when you're playing with other people's money it's a different story.

mistermann 13y ago

Not offended, just tired of, in my perception, the air of absolute certainty among so many technical people. A bit beyond the scope of this particular discussion, what does offend me is when people (not you perhaps) are constantly learning these life long skills on the client's dime. Some things it is fair/correct/righteous to learn and bill as part of a project, but when it isn't, I'll take the $20 approach every time. It offends me when technical people are dishonest and insist that the "technically correct and proper" way is the path that must be taken, not the approach that should be taken. Or, they don't even inform the client of the option and just secretly make the decision to take the more expensive route. Again, not saying this is you, but it sure as hell happens. By the way, who here is celebrating ignorance? Scott Hanselman?

JackMorgan 13y ago
OK, I see where you are coming from now. I agree, stealing from a client, that's still stealing. When I learn new tools/skills, I learn them on my own time unless there is an explicit understanding, $20 or not. I consider such things a "sharpen your saws" sort of activity, and that is best done in isolation from the crunch of deadlines anyway. As to Scott's writings, yes, that is what I was referring to. I get a distinct vibe from some of his writings that goes like: "we are mediocre, and that's okay, let's laugh it off!" Which is odd, considering some of his other writings which strongly imply that is not really what he thinks. Perhaps he just has sharp sense of self-deprecating humor. Perhaps he is just trying to be relatable to a community not known for exploration. Either way, I feel like it confuses his message. Mountains out of molehills, perhaps, but lately I have been trying to read text more carefully, looking for worldviews, which has added a new layer of depth to even development blogs.
- voltagex_ 13y ago
  >"we are mediocre, and that's okay, let's laugh it off!" Given Scott has been involved in such things as Tekpub (excellent tutorials site, now bought by Pluralsight) and lots of developer outreach, I don't think this is the right thing to read into his writing. >Perhaps he is just trying to be relatable to a community not known for exploration What? >lately I have been trying to read text more carefully, looking for worldviews, which has added a new layer of depth to even development blogs. I suspect you (and I) introduce our own biases when trying to gain extra context - remember text loses a lot of meaning we'd otherwise get through vocal tones and body language. Maybe try the Hanselminutes podcast?
- mistermann 13y ago
  > I consider such things a "sharpen your saws" sort of activity, and that is best done in isolation from the crunch of deadlines anyway. Kudos to you for that attitude, and I wish it was more widespread. Too many developers lose that attitude develop a sense of entitlement not very far into their career. > As to Scott's writings, yes, that is what I was referring to. I get a distinct vibe from some of his writings that goes like: "we are mediocre, and that's okay, let's laugh it off!" I'd attribute that moreso to self-deprecating humor. You may also notice Jeff Atwood of StackOverflow fame is very modest abut his capabilities, despite affecting the technical world far more than 90% of the self-impressed people you may encounter online. However, I'd also wager that "Windows guys" don't take themselves nearly as serious as "Unix guys", at least in part because Unix guys tend to in fact be smarter, because you have to be. I mean that as a genuine compliment. But I will follow up with an "insult" - I've met a lot of too smart people (in both camps I suppose) who let their brilliance and devotion to technical correctness and purity blind out any consideration of both economics and plain common sense, which is fine if you're running your own startup I suppose, but when you're playing with other people's money it's a different story.