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Stasi's Zersetzung: "The Stasi perfected the technique of psychological harassment of perceived enemies known as Zersetzung. ... This often included psychologic

by wreegab 13y ago

Stasi's Zersetzung: "The Stasi perfected the technique of psychological harassment of perceived enemies known as Zersetzung. ... This often included psychological attacks such as breaking into homes and messing with the contents – moving furniture, altering the timing of an alarm, removing pictures from walls or replacing one variety of tea with another" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi#Zersetzung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi#Zersetzung It's just history repeating itself.

themodelplumber 13y ago
The Stasi perfected the technique, but that doesn't mean that anybody who uses it is on par with the Stasi. Psyching people out is natural human behavior. Heck, even Arnold Schwarzenegger figured out that stealing Mike Katz' lucky shirt before a competition might take off a few points. Applebaum is probably less worried about his stuff being moved around to harass him and more worried about obtaining new computer hardware and a new place to live at this point. I really doubt that the main purpose of this attack was harassment.
- wreegab 13y ago
  You can speculate about the motives, the result though is difficult to argue.
- RyanZAG 13y ago
  I don't really understand - if use of the technique (and similar) is why the Stasi is as maligned as it is, then surely using the technique does put you on par? What would it take to put you on par then? Nationality? A mustache?
  - themodelplumber 13y ago
    > if use of the technique (and similar) is why the Stasi is as maligned as it is, then surely using the technique does put you on par? So, if the Stasi does something, and it is the reason they are maligned, and I do the same thing at all to any degree, you're saying I'm on par with the Stasi? Please help me understand your sentence. >What would it take to put you on par then? Well, let's back up and look at the sport of golf, where the term "par" is commonly used. If I play the game, I'm golfing. Does that put me on par with Tiger Woods? No. In order to be on par with Tiger Woods, I need to be right up there matching Tiger Woods. The argument that the _use of a technique_ puts the invaders (whoever they are) on par with the Stasi is fallacious. If you want to use hyperbole, go ahead. But don't claim it's logical just because it feels good.
    - Crito 13y ago
      Are you saying that harassment like this is not one of the reasons the Stasi are maligned? Of course it is...
      - PavlovsCat 13y ago
        Well, to be fair, the STASI was more extreme in many respects. Kinda hard to beat them, with there being informants basically everywhere, and a literal wall around the country. It's like being spied on and harrassed while in a prison. Maybe North Korea might be similar, I have no idea. On the other hand we are stuck in this gravity well, with an adversary with unlimited reach and electronic eyes and ears everywhere. So the comparison may be much less far fetched than we'd like to believe. After all, the GDR had people who just "went along" and didn't mind any of the STASI stuff either; how is our situation any different? Some people not currently directly affected care, but I would guess all that don't, are not currently directly affected... because once this stuff turns on you, you're not in Kansas anymore, I bet you.
        Crito 13y ago
        > Well, to be fair, the STASI was more extreme in many respects. Sure, we are talking about one of many components of why the Stasi are maligned. Basically this is not a "Hitler was a vegetarian; you're a vegetarian" type of scenario. Rather this is a "Hitler wrote a book blaming Jews for everything; you wrote a book blaming Jews for everything" scenario. Yes, writing an anti-semitic book is by no means Hitler's greatest crime, it barely even ranks on that list; but you can be sure it is very central to the reasons that he is maligned. In other words, harassment by the Stasi is not an incidental attribute of the Stasi. It is one of many defining attributes of what the Stasi were.
        StavrosK 13y ago
        Sure, the Stasi were more extreme in some respects. However, they'd piss their pants if they had the surveillance capabilities the NSA is using now.
    - rhizome 13y ago
- PavlovsCat 13y ago
  > Psyching people out is natural human behavior. Heck, even Arnold Schwarzenegger figured out that stealing Mike Katz' lucky shirt before a competition might take off a few points. Arnold Schwarzenegger? http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1002-01.htm http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1002-01.htm You cite that guy as some kind of super centered human? ("even Arnold Schwarzenegger") Also, where does the power differential come into play? Arnold snagging the shirt from a competitor, that's cute; but try an adversary with a near unlimited budget and arsenal, and many, many, many people. Try being one person, living in a foreign country because you would feel even more unsafe at home. This, is being a bully. Not as a "human", but as a machinery built of humans (which can take on radically different properties btw). To bring up Arnold is correct in a way, but not because it's "normal" in any sense other than chimpanzees hunting others for fun and profit is "normal". Fuck normal. The question is, do we at this point in time and going forward want that. That is always the question. Some call it civilization, or decency. And as for being on par with the STASI: http://apps.opendatacity.de/stasi-vs-nsa/english.html http://apps.opendatacity.de/stasi-vs-nsa/english.html Your argument is kinda that it's not being the STASI because it's being a normal human being. Just pause and think about that. By your logic not even the STASI Zersetzung was actually STASI Zersetzung, because it's just normal individuals doing what normal individuals do. There is nothing you could not justify with that. Fact is, if you were the target of this, you'd appreciate support, you'd love to see a change. But since you're not, you tell us what Appelbaum probably cares most about. He talks about how he realized how surveillance kills human relationships, how he lost many friends and even his girlfriend because they could NOT stand that pressure. And you tell us it's not harrassment... just astonishing. Just no.
  - themodelplumber 13y ago
    >You cite that guy as some kind of super centered human? Where did I do that? >And you tell us it's not harrassment... just astonishing. Just no. Again you misread me. It may be harassment, but what was my point about harassment? Read again please.
    - PavlovsCat 13y ago
      > Where did I do that? by saying "even Arnold Schwarzenegger". What does the "even" mean, then? Another interesting thought is that he actually stole the shirt to demoralize, so for Zersetzungspurposes. > what was my point about harassment? That's it's "natural", and therefore not Zersetzung. Not really much of a point if you ask me.
- Detrus 13y ago
  Actually if you watch Raw Iron, the making of Pumping Iron, the shirt stealing joke was set up for the documentary and wasn't by Arnold. It was done as a docu-drama, not a documentary. Pumping is like cumming, missing dad's funeral, etc weren't true. Very important factoid!
- coldtea 13y ago
  >The Stasi perfected the technique, but that doesn't mean that anybody who uses it is on par with the Stasi. Well, he can be worse too, I guess. And no, the ends do not justify the means. Especially since the ends are shitty in this case too.
RexRollman 13y ago
I had never heard of Zersetzung before and the link is very interesting. Thanks for the comment.
codex 13y ago
Could he harassment, but, on the other hand, plenty of governments would love to get their hands on the rest of the Snowden cache. This may be one such attempt. Besides the US, you have China and Russia.

by wreegab 13y ago

themodelplumber 13y ago

The Stasi perfected the technique, but that doesn't mean that anybody who uses it is on par with the Stasi. Psyching people out is natural human behavior. Heck, even Arnold Schwarzenegger figured out that stealing Mike Katz' lucky shirt before a competition might take off a few points. Applebaum is probably less worried about his stuff being moved around to harass him and more worried about obtaining new computer hardware and a new place to live at this point. I really doubt that the main purpose of this attack was harassment.

wreegab 13y ago
You can speculate about the motives, the result though is difficult to argue.
RyanZAG 13y ago
I don't really understand - if use of the technique (and similar) is why the Stasi is as maligned as it is, then surely using the technique does put you on par? What would it take to put you on par then? Nationality? A mustache?
- themodelplumber 13y ago
  > if use of the technique (and similar) is why the Stasi is as maligned as it is, then surely using the technique does put you on par? So, if the Stasi does something, and it is the reason they are maligned, and I do the same thing at all to any degree, you're saying I'm on par with the Stasi? Please help me understand your sentence. >What would it take to put you on par then? Well, let's back up and look at the sport of golf, where the term "par" is commonly used. If I play the game, I'm golfing. Does that put me on par with Tiger Woods? No. In order to be on par with Tiger Woods, I need to be right up there matching Tiger Woods. The argument that the _use of a technique_ puts the invaders (whoever they are) on par with the Stasi is fallacious. If you want to use hyperbole, go ahead. But don't claim it's logical just because it feels good.
  - Crito 13y ago
    Are you saying that harassment like this is not one of the reasons the Stasi are maligned? Of course it is...
    - PavlovsCat 13y ago
      Well, to be fair, the STASI was more extreme in many respects. Kinda hard to beat them, with there being informants basically everywhere, and a literal wall around the country. It's like being spied on and harrassed while in a prison. Maybe North Korea might be similar, I have no idea. On the other hand we are stuck in this gravity well, with an adversary with unlimited reach and electronic eyes and ears everywhere. So the comparison may be much less far fetched than we'd like to believe. After all, the GDR had people who just "went along" and didn't mind any of the STASI stuff either; how is our situation any different? Some people not currently directly affected care, but I would guess all that don't, are not currently directly affected... because once this stuff turns on you, you're not in Kansas anymore, I bet you.
      - Crito 13y ago
        > Well, to be fair, the STASI was more extreme in many respects. Sure, we are talking about one of many components of why the Stasi are maligned. Basically this is not a "Hitler was a vegetarian; you're a vegetarian" type of scenario. Rather this is a "Hitler wrote a book blaming Jews for everything; you wrote a book blaming Jews for everything" scenario. Yes, writing an anti-semitic book is by no means Hitler's greatest crime, it barely even ranks on that list; but you can be sure it is very central to the reasons that he is maligned. In other words, harassment by the Stasi is not an incidental attribute of the Stasi. It is one of many defining attributes of what the Stasi were.
      - StavrosK 13y ago
        Sure, the Stasi were more extreme in some respects. However, they'd piss their pants if they had the surveillance capabilities the NSA is using now.
  - rhizome 13y ago
PavlovsCat 13y ago
> Psyching people out is natural human behavior. Heck, even Arnold Schwarzenegger figured out that stealing Mike Katz' lucky shirt before a competition might take off a few points. Arnold Schwarzenegger? http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1002-01.htm http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1002-01.htm You cite that guy as some kind of super centered human? ("even Arnold Schwarzenegger") Also, where does the power differential come into play? Arnold snagging the shirt from a competitor, that's cute; but try an adversary with a near unlimited budget and arsenal, and many, many, many people. Try being one person, living in a foreign country because you would feel even more unsafe at home. This, is being a bully. Not as a "human", but as a machinery built of humans (which can take on radically different properties btw). To bring up Arnold is correct in a way, but not because it's "normal" in any sense other than chimpanzees hunting others for fun and profit is "normal". Fuck normal. The question is, do we at this point in time and going forward want that. That is always the question. Some call it civilization, or decency. And as for being on par with the STASI: http://apps.opendatacity.de/stasi-vs-nsa/english.html http://apps.opendatacity.de/stasi-vs-nsa/english.html Your argument is kinda that it's not being the STASI because it's being a normal human being. Just pause and think about that. By your logic not even the STASI Zersetzung was actually STASI Zersetzung, because it's just normal individuals doing what normal individuals do. There is nothing you could not justify with that. Fact is, if you were the target of this, you'd appreciate support, you'd love to see a change. But since you're not, you tell us what Appelbaum probably cares most about. He talks about how he realized how surveillance kills human relationships, how he lost many friends and even his girlfriend because they could NOT stand that pressure. And you tell us it's not harrassment... just astonishing. Just no.
- themodelplumber 13y ago
  >You cite that guy as some kind of super centered human? Where did I do that? >And you tell us it's not harrassment... just astonishing. Just no. Again you misread me. It may be harassment, but what was my point about harassment? Read again please.
  - PavlovsCat 13y ago
    > Where did I do that? by saying "even Arnold Schwarzenegger". What does the "even" mean, then? Another interesting thought is that he actually stole the shirt to demoralize, so for Zersetzungspurposes. > what was my point about harassment? That's it's "natural", and therefore not Zersetzung. Not really much of a point if you ask me.
Detrus 13y ago
Actually if you watch Raw Iron, the making of Pumping Iron, the shirt stealing joke was set up for the documentary and wasn't by Arnold. It was done as a docu-drama, not a documentary. Pumping is like cumming, missing dad's funeral, etc weren't true. Very important factoid!
coldtea 13y ago
>The Stasi perfected the technique, but that doesn't mean that anybody who uses it is on par with the Stasi. Well, he can be worse too, I guess. And no, the ends do not justify the means. Especially since the ends are shitty in this case too.

RexRollman 13y ago

I had never heard of Zersetzung before and the link is very interesting. Thanks for the comment.

codex 13y ago

Could he harassment, but, on the other hand, plenty of governments would love to get their hands on the rest of the Snowden cache. This may be one such attempt. Besides the US, you have China and Russia.