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That is how social reproach works! I feel like you're strongly missing the point. The institution of The National Security Agency is made up of people. The ins

by sedev 13y ago

That is how social reproach works! I feel like you're strongly missing the point. The institution of The National Security Agency is made up of people. The institution and its members are embedded in a social context. Institutions, among other things, are responsibility-diffusing machines. You can't reproach the institution without also reproaching its members, because otherwise the members don't feel any responsibility for whatever you disapprove of about the institution and carry on with business as usual. You can't make the disapproval stick without affecting the individual members. Or, to flip it around a little, when you scold the institution and let members off the hook because they're just following orders and trying to pay the rent, you are saying "those orders were okay to follow." I agree that it's not fully accurate to say "The NSA is untrustworthy, Bob worked for the NSA, therefore Bob is untrustworthy" - but because of how institutions work, if you want the institution to pay attention, then yes, there must be impact on its members. There is no way around this.

yeukhon 13y ago
Maybe I was maybe others were. We are not saying NSA employees should not feel bad for what they did, for following orders. I am arguing that when someone is titled NSA employee, the first instinct is "I don't like this guy and I don't him near me" when all he wanted to do was to say Hi my name is Bob and I had this interesting problem I want to solve with you guys." And to those who left NSA either because they hate it or because they realize it was wrong. So if the solution is to be snowden, declare publicly that he does not endorse NSA, it is the equivalent to saying "you must face a public trial, you must tell the world you do not and will not endorse nsa anymore upon exit." Everyone ought to be a hero. I do understand the institutional constraint. If all NSA employees rage quit today, will we just forgive them? But that is not going to happen, for various reasons.
- sedev 13y ago
  We might be talking past each other. I'm saying - yes, the burden should be on current and former NSA employees to explain why they're trustworthy. People can set their standard of "acceptable explanation" however they like - however, I feel strongly that someone who worked for a deeply compromised institution, should bear the burden of explaining. When Bob just wants to introduce himself and people say "You worked for the NSA? Go away, spy" -- that is a sign that effective social punishment of the NSA - the institution - is taking place. I see you worrying about the scenario where no amount of explanation Bob can give is enough to get him in the door. That's fine. But I'm arguing that Bob should have to do some explaining, and I'm arguing that if you do want the NSA - the institution - to suffer effective consequences, then you must accept that individual members will also face some gnarly consequence, because that's how institutions in a social context work. You cannot meaningfully punish the institution without also punishing its members. It does raise moral issues, yes - but if you have already decided, "we must punish the institution," then you fatally compromise that goal by adding a lily-livered "but let's not make things too hard for the members."
  - yeukhon 13y ago
    We probably are. > should bear the burden of explaining. Yes. Indeed, but how many will accept that? How many of us here will bother to look at it and say "he sounds genuine." We should evaluate what things one can do to help people to get out of NSA and still receive some degree of respect/human treatment. If by punishing is by not giving them a chance because, as some have declared, "I will not trust them at all anymore", these poor souls will have no jobs but NSA jobs. And let me restate my position: I don't endorse NSA and I believe they are morally responsible for the work they do (everyone should, regardless of whether NSA or Adobe leaking password). But let's focus on what one can do to make the transition easier. What makes them part of us again. When we say Mr. Foo Bar, NSA cryptographer, publishing a paper for his next talk, sure, the chair will just throw that away and say "fuck it, no one would want to hear bs from NSA." As you can see, even though some people say "I have no problem with individual contribution", some probably left the part "but I will remain skeptical and uncomfortable with them being around, and making changes to Linux kernel." And to some they just never want to see those poor souls on IRC anymore.

by sedev 13y ago

yeukhon 13y ago

Maybe I was maybe others were. We are not saying NSA employees should not feel bad for what they did, for following orders. I am arguing that when someone is titled NSA employee, the first instinct is "I don't like this guy and I don't him near me" when all he wanted to do was to say Hi my name is Bob and I had this interesting problem I want to solve with you guys." And to those who left NSA either because they hate it or because they realize it was wrong. So if the solution is to be snowden, declare publicly that he does not endorse NSA, it is the equivalent to saying "you must face a public trial, you must tell the world you do not and will not endorse nsa anymore upon exit." Everyone ought to be a hero. I do understand the institutional constraint. If all NSA employees rage quit today, will we just forgive them? But that is not going to happen, for various reasons.

sedev 13y ago
We might be talking past each other. I'm saying - yes, the burden should be on current and former NSA employees to explain why they're trustworthy. People can set their standard of "acceptable explanation" however they like - however, I feel strongly that someone who worked for a deeply compromised institution, should bear the burden of explaining. When Bob just wants to introduce himself and people say "You worked for the NSA? Go away, spy" -- that is a sign that effective social punishment of the NSA - the institution - is taking place. I see you worrying about the scenario where no amount of explanation Bob can give is enough to get him in the door. That's fine. But I'm arguing that Bob should have to do some explaining, and I'm arguing that if you do want the NSA - the institution - to suffer effective consequences, then you must accept that individual members will also face some gnarly consequence, because that's how institutions in a social context work. You cannot meaningfully punish the institution without also punishing its members. It does raise moral issues, yes - but if you have already decided, "we must punish the institution," then you fatally compromise that goal by adding a lily-livered "but let's not make things too hard for the members."
- yeukhon 13y ago
  We probably are. > should bear the burden of explaining. Yes. Indeed, but how many will accept that? How many of us here will bother to look at it and say "he sounds genuine." We should evaluate what things one can do to help people to get out of NSA and still receive some degree of respect/human treatment. If by punishing is by not giving them a chance because, as some have declared, "I will not trust them at all anymore", these poor souls will have no jobs but NSA jobs. And let me restate my position: I don't endorse NSA and I believe they are morally responsible for the work they do (everyone should, regardless of whether NSA or Adobe leaking password). But let's focus on what one can do to make the transition easier. What makes them part of us again. When we say Mr. Foo Bar, NSA cryptographer, publishing a paper for his next talk, sure, the chair will just throw that away and say "fuck it, no one would want to hear bs from NSA." As you can see, even though some people say "I have no problem with individual contribution", some probably left the part "but I will remain skeptical and uncomfortable with them being around, and making changes to Linux kernel." And to some they just never want to see those poor souls on IRC anymore.