8 ms·

Given the immense distress that most trans people seem to experience, I wonder if we (and they) wouldn't be better off if the culture were less supportive of th

by tw266 13y ago

Given the immense distress that most trans people seem to experience, I wonder if we (and they) wouldn't be better off if the culture were less supportive of those lifestyles. I had some inclinations that way as a teenager, and I am SO glad I wasn't living in San Francisco or some other place that would encourage me to "be me".

heterogenic 13y ago
How could we be less tolerant than we are now, exactly? (Without human rights violations?) From what I understand, the suicide attempt rate is about fifty percent in that population before transition, so I'd say we're doing a pretty good job of intolerance already.
marquis 13y ago
>the culture were less supportive of those lifestyles. Perhaps you mean if culture were more supportive of those lifestyles, in adulthood? The best time to experiment is as a teenager - we should encourage that, explore now so your adult decisions are made without hesitation. Not allowing experimentation is how we end up with so much teen suicide, where teens are experiencing confusion and oppression.
mladenkovacevic 13y ago
I don't even know how to read this. You are happy that society forced you to "cure" yourself? If a little social pressure was all it took to get you to ignore your "inclinations" I doubt you're on the same spectrum of inclination that the OP finds herself. You also probably shouldn't think that other people with the same inclinations would be as easily influenced by the mere lack of support for the "lifestyle".. which again implies choice rather than certainty.
- tw266 13y ago
  You're setting up an infalsifiable framework where your worldview must be right (anyone who chooses not to live as trans is not really trans). But ignoring that, there was definitely something going on with me. In elementary school for history dress up day, I wanted to be Betsy Ross. In college, I always hated dealing with chest-thumping groups of males, and I preferred female friends. Halloween was my favorite holiday for obvious reasons. Trans inclination was something long enough and strong enough that an "open-minded" parent or community could have pushed me that way. But over time the importance of those inclinations seemed to fade. I'm a reasonably happy, reasonably successful mostly-straight male. And my success in the workplace and success in family relationships is more important to me than playing with my gender identity. Given what I have heard from trans people, I am pretty sure that I am better off than I would be in a less traditional lifestyle.
  - mladenkovacevic 13y ago
    Oh no I definitely believe that gender identification and sexuality are sliders rather than on/off switches. But I think that it was you who proposed a rigid framework where because society's unwillingness to accept your teenage inclinations somehow worked out for you, it might be better for other trans-gender people as well.
  - nitrogen 13y ago
    It sounds like the best approach would be more acceptance of people's choices and inclinations without forcing them into categories or drawing arbitrary lines between "X" and "Y". That way questioning individuals don't feel pressure to conform to any orientation, and can choose a lifestyle that works for them, whether or not it conforms with any existing labels. Sometimes a questioning individual might choose a traditional straight lifestyle, and that should be just as acceptable as them choosing any other lifestyle.
  - davidtanner 13y ago
    No one except you can tell if you're actually a transsexual or not. But, from what you've said here it doesn't really sound like you are. If you're happy as a male, you don't suffer from gender dysphoria and you don't have a strong urge to cross dress and don't think in your head "Im a girl" then you're probably not trans unless you've done a superhuman effort in repressing it.
  - davidtanner 13y ago
    Being a transsexual is not a "lifestyle". It's a neurological medical condition that is treatable with hormones and surgery. http://tgmeds.org.uk/diffa.html http://tgmeds.org.uk/diffa.html Maybe people think it's a "lifestyle" because they only notice the transsexual people that dress and act in such a way as to socially signal that they have an atypical gender identity. The majority of transsexual people try to hide their changing bodies as they get hormonal therapy till they can successfully blend in ("pass") as a cis gendered woman/man.
    - cynicalkane 13y ago
      This is a very reductionist view of human sexuality. Even if you disagree with the GP it can't be right to describe our feelings about gender and sexuality as "neurological medical conditions" that are "treatable". Psychological reductionism of this type has not been good for humanity in general, and I don't see any reason to pick it up for this issue.
ambler0 13y ago
There are many people for whom "lifestyle decision" isn't even a relevant concept here. These are people who instropsect and find themsleves indisputably one way, yet they look in the mirror and find that they are trapped in the wrong type of body. Ethically, I don't think there is any choice except to be supportive of these people's "lifestyles", which I again put in quotes because the word makes it sound like a whimsical decision, when in fact to the person making the decision it is very much necessary.
pessimizer 13y ago
Since the distress is solely caused by the the culture being "less supportive of those lifestyles," I think that will do the opposite of help. Also, we'd become less supportive of minority religions according to that rationale - and ignore racial discrimination as an impossible problem.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- davidtanner 13y ago
  That's not the case for a lot of transgender people. I'm a MtF transsexual woman and, yea, a lot of problems are created by the intersection of being trans and our culture - but the underlying problem is having the wrong hormones in my body and the wrong sexual organs. A lot of trans people would suffer, and require medical treatment, even in a perfectly accepting society.
- Sssnake 13y ago
  >Since the distress is solely caused by the the culture being "less supportive of those lifestyles," But it isn't. Mental illness, depression and suicide are disproportionately high among transsexsuals, both pre and post op. Even in societies where they are fully accepted. It is not unreasonable to think that the differences that have been found in their brains predispose them to certain mental illnesses. You can't just blame it on society.
  - davidtanner 13y ago
    In what society are transsexual people fully accepted?
    - camus2 13y ago
      No society fully accept transsexuals, however, Some places in some countries are known to be more tolerant than others.
      - 13y ago
Malician 13y ago
If it doesn't kill you from the inside to not "be you", if it isn't one of the greatest emotional factors in your life, if it isn't so strong that after convincing yourself you could hide it for many years, it got worse instead of better... Have you considered that your inclinations may have nothing to do with the people who have those "lifestyles"?
groby_b 13y ago
"Since many black people are experiencing poverty and criminalization, I wonder if we (and they) wouldn't be better of if we were less supportive of those lifestyles". Doesn't make much sense, does it now?
- drivingmissm 13y ago
  Single parent households are the single biggest cause of child poverty...there are cultural and lifestyle factors at play.
tesseractive 13y ago
I'm going to give you an alternate perspective. I'm in my 40s. I "had some inclinations that way" too. I listened to everyone who told me that people like that are disgusting freaks, and I tried to keep it suppressed for a long time now, denying it to myself and trying to act "normal," like society expects me to be. Now it's way later and I'm kind of at the end of my rope with long-term clinical depression. I'm pretty sure that within the next few years it's going to come down to a choice between killing myself and transitioning. Only now, my transition options are way worse and I picked up some dependents along the way who are going to be incredibly hurt either way. Maybe I can keep it going like this somehow until I reach the natural end of my miserable life, and for the sake of the people depending on me, I will keep trying. But every year it gets harder and harder to make myself get out of bed and face life hiding inside the shell of a person I'm pretending to be. So, in my considered opinion, no, I don't think anyone would be better off if there were more people like me.
- Sssnake 13y ago
  There is no reason to believe that SRS will "cure" your depression. Suicide rates stay just as high post-op. Many people undergo the procedure only to find it did not help them at all.
  - tesseractive 13y ago
    Oh, I'm well aware of that, though it's a good addition to the discussion. The thing about transitioning is that it's a long process, there are many points where you can turn back if it's not working, and not everyone takes the same steps anyway. For some people, "The Surgery", (sometimes called Sexual Reassignment Surgery, but many people prefer the term Gender Confirmation Surgery, or just "bottom surgery", as opposed to breast implants which are "top surgery"), is the main thing, but for an awful lot of people, it isn't -- even though most non-trans folk seem to think of it that way. For a lot of trans people, living day to day life as their real gender is the important thing, and they're not so hung up on what's between their legs. For some people, hormones help them feel like they're "supposed to", and that's the main thing. For others, they hate their chest, and top surgery is most important. While others may think that Facial Feminization Surgery (FFS) is the most crucial -- not least because for many trans women, FFS is the difference between passing and not passing, which makes an enormous practical difference in day-to-day life and often even in terms of personal safety. For me, I've read a lot about this, including many personal accounts, and heard a number of first hand stories from a group I've started attending. I honestly don't know how things will work out for me if/when I start transitioning. I've heard enough horror stories to go into the process with the appropriate level of fear and caution. But at some point when your life becomes one big well of depression that doesn't respond to medication and you start to lose your ability to function in day-to-day life, there's really nothing left to do but start trying to explore the remaining options. So, I'm not transitioning, but I'm looking into it and trying to figure out what the hell I'm going to do.
declan 13y ago
I'm reminded of the case of Dani Bunten, born Dan, who was a video game pioneer and probably would be posting here on HN today if she hadn't died of cancer. Will Wright dedicated the Sims to Dani, Salon notes in her obituary: http://www.salon.com/2003/03/18/bunten/ http://www.salon.com/2003/03/18/bunten/ Dani wrote after undergoing sex reassignment surgery: "Don't do it! That's my advice. This is the most awful, most expensive, most painful, most disruptive thing you could ever do. Don't do it unless there is no other alternative. You may think your life is tough but unless it's a choice between suicide and a sex-change it will only get worse. And the costs keep coming. You lose control over most aspects of your life, become a second class citizen and all so you can wear women's clothes and feel cuter than you do now. Don't do it is all I've got to say... That's advice I wish someone had given me." Her full essay is on a memorial site, though Google says it's malware-infected, so take precautions: http://www.anticlockwise.com/dani/personal/changes/dont.htm http://www.anticlockwise.com/dani/personal/changes/dont.htm I wonder if the outcome (and her recommendations) would have been different if she were going through this today. A final Dani quote: "No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had spent more time alone with my computer.'"
- tesseractive 13y ago
  FYI, this kind of advice is available in abundance to trans people. One common version I have heard is that you shouldn't transition unless you feel like the only alternative is to kill yourself. Also FYI, many trans people meet this criterion. Having said that, at some point you have to size up the risks each way. Everyone gets to make their own decision about their own life. And ironically, your last quote, to me, counsels exactly the opposite choice from your first. Hating my gender presentation makes me just want to hide away from life with my computer.

by tw266 13y ago

heterogenic 13y ago

How could we be less tolerant than we are now, exactly? (Without human rights violations?) From what I understand, the suicide attempt rate is about fifty percent in that population before transition, so I'd say we're doing a pretty good job of intolerance already.

marquis 13y ago

>the culture were less supportive of those lifestyles. Perhaps you mean if culture were more supportive of those lifestyles, in adulthood? The best time to experiment is as a teenager - we should encourage that, explore now so your adult decisions are made without hesitation. Not allowing experimentation is how we end up with so much teen suicide, where teens are experiencing confusion and oppression.

mladenkovacevic 13y ago

I don't even know how to read this. You are happy that society forced you to "cure" yourself? If a little social pressure was all it took to get you to ignore your "inclinations" I doubt you're on the same spectrum of inclination that the OP finds herself. You also probably shouldn't think that other people with the same inclinations would be as easily influenced by the mere lack of support for the "lifestyle".. which again implies choice rather than certainty.

tw266 13y ago
You're setting up an infalsifiable framework where your worldview must be right (anyone who chooses not to live as trans is not really trans). But ignoring that, there was definitely something going on with me. In elementary school for history dress up day, I wanted to be Betsy Ross. In college, I always hated dealing with chest-thumping groups of males, and I preferred female friends. Halloween was my favorite holiday for obvious reasons. Trans inclination was something long enough and strong enough that an "open-minded" parent or community could have pushed me that way. But over time the importance of those inclinations seemed to fade. I'm a reasonably happy, reasonably successful mostly-straight male. And my success in the workplace and success in family relationships is more important to me than playing with my gender identity. Given what I have heard from trans people, I am pretty sure that I am better off than I would be in a less traditional lifestyle.
- mladenkovacevic 13y ago
  Oh no I definitely believe that gender identification and sexuality are sliders rather than on/off switches. But I think that it was you who proposed a rigid framework where because society's unwillingness to accept your teenage inclinations somehow worked out for you, it might be better for other trans-gender people as well.
- nitrogen 13y ago
  It sounds like the best approach would be more acceptance of people's choices and inclinations without forcing them into categories or drawing arbitrary lines between "X" and "Y". That way questioning individuals don't feel pressure to conform to any orientation, and can choose a lifestyle that works for them, whether or not it conforms with any existing labels. Sometimes a questioning individual might choose a traditional straight lifestyle, and that should be just as acceptable as them choosing any other lifestyle.
- davidtanner 13y ago
  No one except you can tell if you're actually a transsexual or not. But, from what you've said here it doesn't really sound like you are. If you're happy as a male, you don't suffer from gender dysphoria and you don't have a strong urge to cross dress and don't think in your head "Im a girl" then you're probably not trans unless you've done a superhuman effort in repressing it.
- davidtanner 13y ago
  Being a transsexual is not a "lifestyle". It's a neurological medical condition that is treatable with hormones and surgery. http://tgmeds.org.uk/diffa.html http://tgmeds.org.uk/diffa.html Maybe people think it's a "lifestyle" because they only notice the transsexual people that dress and act in such a way as to socially signal that they have an atypical gender identity. The majority of transsexual people try to hide their changing bodies as they get hormonal therapy till they can successfully blend in ("pass") as a cis gendered woman/man.
  - cynicalkane 13y ago
    This is a very reductionist view of human sexuality. Even if you disagree with the GP it can't be right to describe our feelings about gender and sexuality as "neurological medical conditions" that are "treatable". Psychological reductionism of this type has not been good for humanity in general, and I don't see any reason to pick it up for this issue.

ambler0 13y ago

There are many people for whom "lifestyle decision" isn't even a relevant concept here. These are people who instropsect and find themsleves indisputably one way, yet they look in the mirror and find that they are trapped in the wrong type of body. Ethically, I don't think there is any choice except to be supportive of these people's "lifestyles", which I again put in quotes because the word makes it sound like a whimsical decision, when in fact to the person making the decision it is very much necessary.

pessimizer 13y ago

Since the distress is solely caused by the the culture being "less supportive of those lifestyles," I think that will do the opposite of help. Also, we'd become less supportive of minority religions according to that rationale - and ignore racial discrimination as an impossible problem.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
davidtanner 13y ago
That's not the case for a lot of transgender people. I'm a MtF transsexual woman and, yea, a lot of problems are created by the intersection of being trans and our culture - but the underlying problem is having the wrong hormones in my body and the wrong sexual organs. A lot of trans people would suffer, and require medical treatment, even in a perfectly accepting society.
Sssnake 13y ago
>Since the distress is solely caused by the the culture being "less supportive of those lifestyles," But it isn't. Mental illness, depression and suicide are disproportionately high among transsexsuals, both pre and post op. Even in societies where they are fully accepted. It is not unreasonable to think that the differences that have been found in their brains predispose them to certain mental illnesses. You can't just blame it on society.
- davidtanner 13y ago
  In what society are transsexual people fully accepted?
  - camus2 13y ago
    No society fully accept transsexuals, however, Some places in some countries are known to be more tolerant than others.
    - 13y ago

Malician 13y ago

If it doesn't kill you from the inside to not "be you", if it isn't one of the greatest emotional factors in your life, if it isn't so strong that after convincing yourself you could hide it for many years, it got worse instead of better... Have you considered that your inclinations may have nothing to do with the people who have those "lifestyles"?

groby_b 13y ago

"Since many black people are experiencing poverty and criminalization, I wonder if we (and they) wouldn't be better of if we were less supportive of those lifestyles". Doesn't make much sense, does it now?

drivingmissm 13y ago
Single parent households are the single biggest cause of child poverty...there are cultural and lifestyle factors at play.

tesseractive 13y ago

I'm going to give you an alternate perspective. I'm in my 40s. I "had some inclinations that way" too. I listened to everyone who told me that people like that are disgusting freaks, and I tried to keep it suppressed for a long time now, denying it to myself and trying to act "normal," like society expects me to be. Now it's way later and I'm kind of at the end of my rope with long-term clinical depression. I'm pretty sure that within the next few years it's going to come down to a choice between killing myself and transitioning. Only now, my transition options are way worse and I picked up some dependents along the way who are going to be incredibly hurt either way. Maybe I can keep it going like this somehow until I reach the natural end of my miserable life, and for the sake of the people depending on me, I will keep trying. But every year it gets harder and harder to make myself get out of bed and face life hiding inside the shell of a person I'm pretending to be. So, in my considered opinion, no, I don't think anyone would be better off if there were more people like me.

Sssnake 13y ago
There is no reason to believe that SRS will "cure" your depression. Suicide rates stay just as high post-op. Many people undergo the procedure only to find it did not help them at all.
- tesseractive 13y ago
  Oh, I'm well aware of that, though it's a good addition to the discussion. The thing about transitioning is that it's a long process, there are many points where you can turn back if it's not working, and not everyone takes the same steps anyway. For some people, "The Surgery", (sometimes called Sexual Reassignment Surgery, but many people prefer the term Gender Confirmation Surgery, or just "bottom surgery", as opposed to breast implants which are "top surgery"), is the main thing, but for an awful lot of people, it isn't -- even though most non-trans folk seem to think of it that way. For a lot of trans people, living day to day life as their real gender is the important thing, and they're not so hung up on what's between their legs. For some people, hormones help them feel like they're "supposed to", and that's the main thing. For others, they hate their chest, and top surgery is most important. While others may think that Facial Feminization Surgery (FFS) is the most crucial -- not least because for many trans women, FFS is the difference between passing and not passing, which makes an enormous practical difference in day-to-day life and often even in terms of personal safety. For me, I've read a lot about this, including many personal accounts, and heard a number of first hand stories from a group I've started attending. I honestly don't know how things will work out for me if/when I start transitioning. I've heard enough horror stories to go into the process with the appropriate level of fear and caution. But at some point when your life becomes one big well of depression that doesn't respond to medication and you start to lose your ability to function in day-to-day life, there's really nothing left to do but start trying to explore the remaining options. So, I'm not transitioning, but I'm looking into it and trying to figure out what the hell I'm going to do.

declan 13y ago

I'm reminded of the case of Dani Bunten, born Dan, who was a video game pioneer and probably would be posting here on HN today if she hadn't died of cancer. Will Wright dedicated the Sims to Dani, Salon notes in her obituary: http://www.salon.com/2003/03/18/bunten/ http://www.salon.com/2003/03/18/bunten/ Dani wrote after undergoing sex reassignment surgery: "Don't do it! That's my advice. This is the most awful, most expensive, most painful, most disruptive thing you could ever do. Don't do it unless there is no other alternative. You may think your life is tough but unless it's a choice between suicide and a sex-change it will only get worse. And the costs keep coming. You lose control over most aspects of your life, become a second class citizen and all so you can wear women's clothes and feel cuter than you do now. Don't do it is all I've got to say... That's advice I wish someone had given me." Her full essay is on a memorial site, though Google says it's malware-infected, so take precautions: http://www.anticlockwise.com/dani/personal/changes/dont.htm http://www.anticlockwise.com/dani/personal/changes/dont.htm I wonder if the outcome (and her recommendations) would have been different if she were going through this today. A final Dani quote: "No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had spent more time alone with my computer.'"

tesseractive 13y ago
FYI, this kind of advice is available in abundance to trans people. One common version I have heard is that you shouldn't transition unless you feel like the only alternative is to kill yourself. Also FYI, many trans people meet this criterion. Having said that, at some point you have to size up the risks each way. Everyone gets to make their own decision about their own life. And ironically, your last quote, to me, counsels exactly the opposite choice from your first. Hating my gender presentation makes me just want to hide away from life with my computer.