6 ms·

China’s academic obsession with testing

21 points by sonabinu 13y ago

xname 13y ago
"Of course East Asian kids test well. They are tested every day, even when they are sick. " -- This is a silly statement based on a nonsense assumption that all the tests are the same: all tests only test testing skills. Test is not just about testing skills. The most important part is understanding and mastery of the subject. PISA (http://www.oecd.org/pisa/ http://www.oecd.org/pisa/) test is designed to examine students high level understanding and application of subject knowledge and skills. The fact of Chinese students did well in PISA test cannot be just attributed to "obsession with testing". You have to understand the subject to do well in the test. Some people like to say Chinese /Asian students are only good at rote memorization. But, you know what, PISA is not designed to test rote memorization. You can try some PISA questions by yourself at http://www.oecd.org/pisa/test/ http://www.oecd.org/pisa/test/ to see how rote memorization can help you in the PISA exam.
- saraid216 13y ago
  PISA tests are not based off school curricula. This is a much different claim than the one that PISA tests successfully examine "high level understanding and application of subject knowledge and skills". PISA tests are time-bound; thus, they cannot avoid testing time management. PISA tests include multiple choice questions; thus, they cannot avoid testing students' ability to eliminate nonsensical options. The issues with short-answer questions are more subtle and less problematic, but at the very least, depend on the reviewer having the capacity to fully understand the students' response, linguistically and colloquially. These are very common complaints about test design: that the test scores end up being trumped by orthogonal "test-taking" skills. The typical responses to them are that these orthogonal skills are nevertheless useful "real-world" skills, which is absolutely true, but it undermines the original claim that the tests are primarily examining the actual subject knowledge.
  - xname 13y ago
    Can you please tell me, in which country, age 15 students generally don't know to eliminate nonsensical options in multiple choice questions?
    - auctiontheory 13y ago
      You should try tutoring math at a high school in a poor area - as I am doing. It's eye opening.
    - dbaupp 13y ago
      There are degrees of nonsense, and knowing that something is nonsense might require some background understanding.
    - saraid216 13y ago
      That wasn't the implication I was making, which should have been pretty clear from the list of examples I gave right next to that.
- ACow_Adonis 13y ago
  Ok, but the test results from the PISA will be a combination of factors: a certain portion attributable to familiarity with the content, a certain portion attributable to general IQ, a certain portion attributable to teaching methods, a certain proportion attributable to societal factors (urbanisation/distribution of wealth), and a certain portion attributed to general strategies and cultural familiarity in a testing environment. An obsession with testing would most certainly explain a statistical bump, but I imagine neither you nor I can accurately attribute how much each of those things contributes to the PISA score of each country. Now if i really wanted to be culturally insensitive, i'd add in a portion for preponderance to cheat to show themselves in a good light. But good luck ever getting governments together to try to accurately measure that...
bronson 13y ago
I was hoping this was going to be about semiconductor yields or TDD...
analyst74 13y ago
One of the fundamental reason why Asians do well in testing is because academical achievements are highly valued, by parents, teachers, society, and most importantly, their peers. It's the same reason why Americans are really good at basketball and football, why Brazilians are really good at soccer. Kids will go through great lengths to earn respect from peers. Whether the attitude toward academic achievements creates followers or leaders, remains to be proven.
- altoz 13y ago
  Those are the realistic paths to upward mobility in each society.
  - ido 13y ago
    Playing sports is the realist path to upwards mobility in America? As opposed to any well paid professionals such as programmers, doctors, lawyers, engineers or accountants? What percentage of kids who try really hard to be really good at basketball or football make a successful career out of it? I don't know but I suspect about the same ratio as those that try really hard to be rock-stars.
    - gametheoretic 13y ago
      Yes, somebody claimed that. Anybody would claim that. Good job shooting it down.
pervycreeper 13y ago
>it’s a sign that our education system is out of control On the contrary, it seems to be quite stable continuation of a centuries-old tradition[1], which has been quite successful, but optimized for different outcomes (success at tasks for which the rules are clear and fixed). [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_examination http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_examination

21 points by sonabinu 13y ago

xname 13y ago

"Of course East Asian kids test well. They are tested every day, even when they are sick. " -- This is a silly statement based on a nonsense assumption that all the tests are the same: all tests only test testing skills. Test is not just about testing skills. The most important part is understanding and mastery of the subject. PISA (http://www.oecd.org/pisa/ http://www.oecd.org/pisa/) test is designed to examine students high level understanding and application of subject knowledge and skills. The fact of Chinese students did well in PISA test cannot be just attributed to "obsession with testing". You have to understand the subject to do well in the test. Some people like to say Chinese /Asian students are only good at rote memorization. But, you know what, PISA is not designed to test rote memorization. You can try some PISA questions by yourself at http://www.oecd.org/pisa/test/ http://www.oecd.org/pisa/test/ to see how rote memorization can help you in the PISA exam.

saraid216 13y ago
PISA tests are not based off school curricula. This is a much different claim than the one that PISA tests successfully examine "high level understanding and application of subject knowledge and skills". PISA tests are time-bound; thus, they cannot avoid testing time management. PISA tests include multiple choice questions; thus, they cannot avoid testing students' ability to eliminate nonsensical options. The issues with short-answer questions are more subtle and less problematic, but at the very least, depend on the reviewer having the capacity to fully understand the students' response, linguistically and colloquially. These are very common complaints about test design: that the test scores end up being trumped by orthogonal "test-taking" skills. The typical responses to them are that these orthogonal skills are nevertheless useful "real-world" skills, which is absolutely true, but it undermines the original claim that the tests are primarily examining the actual subject knowledge.
- xname 13y ago
  Can you please tell me, in which country, age 15 students generally don't know to eliminate nonsensical options in multiple choice questions?
  - auctiontheory 13y ago
    You should try tutoring math at a high school in a poor area - as I am doing. It's eye opening.
  - dbaupp 13y ago
    There are degrees of nonsense, and knowing that something is nonsense might require some background understanding.
  - saraid216 13y ago
    That wasn't the implication I was making, which should have been pretty clear from the list of examples I gave right next to that.
ACow_Adonis 13y ago
Ok, but the test results from the PISA will be a combination of factors: a certain portion attributable to familiarity with the content, a certain portion attributable to general IQ, a certain portion attributable to teaching methods, a certain proportion attributable to societal factors (urbanisation/distribution of wealth), and a certain portion attributed to general strategies and cultural familiarity in a testing environment. An obsession with testing would most certainly explain a statistical bump, but I imagine neither you nor I can accurately attribute how much each of those things contributes to the PISA score of each country. Now if i really wanted to be culturally insensitive, i'd add in a portion for preponderance to cheat to show themselves in a good light. But good luck ever getting governments together to try to accurately measure that...

bronson 13y ago

I was hoping this was going to be about semiconductor yields or TDD...

analyst74 13y ago

One of the fundamental reason why Asians do well in testing is because academical achievements are highly valued, by parents, teachers, society, and most importantly, their peers. It's the same reason why Americans are really good at basketball and football, why Brazilians are really good at soccer. Kids will go through great lengths to earn respect from peers. Whether the attitude toward academic achievements creates followers or leaders, remains to be proven.

altoz 13y ago
Those are the realistic paths to upward mobility in each society.
- ido 13y ago
  Playing sports is the realist path to upwards mobility in America? As opposed to any well paid professionals such as programmers, doctors, lawyers, engineers or accountants? What percentage of kids who try really hard to be really good at basketball or football make a successful career out of it? I don't know but I suspect about the same ratio as those that try really hard to be rock-stars.
  - gametheoretic 13y ago
    Yes, somebody claimed that. Anybody would claim that. Good job shooting it down.

pervycreeper 13y ago

>it’s a sign that our education system is out of control On the contrary, it seems to be quite stable continuation of a centuries-old tradition[1], which has been quite successful, but optimized for different outcomes (success at tasks for which the rules are clear and fixed). [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_examination http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_examination