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The US has really dropped the ball here. We, here in Germany, have a mainstream political party whose leaders are blindly americophile. The last and current gov

The US has really dropped the ball here. We, here in Germany, have a mainstream political party whose leaders are blindly americophile. The last and current government are dominated by that party. From the beginning of the crisis, these people loudly blamed the victim, accusing NSA-critics of anti-americanism and telling us that "the NSA discussion is over". Then, with time, the industrial espionage stories started to emerge (and it became known that Merkel's phone has been bugged since 2002). Turns out, there are quite a few instances where German companies had their trade secrets stolen by American intelligence agencies, which in turn gave those secrets to US competitors. So now even the most blindly devoted atlanticists in government know that they must do something against the NSA problem, and to make it worse, they have to do something that actually works (as opposed to feel-good measures).

bananacurve 13y ago
> German companies had their trade secrets stolen by American intelligence agencies, which in turn gave those secrets to US competitors Do you have a source for that? As far as I can tell Germany wants tighter intelligence integration with the US and howls at the slightest mention of even reducing the size of US military bases on German soil.
- wil421 13y ago
  >German companies had their trade secrets stolen by American intelligence agencies, which in turn gave those secrets to US competitors. I have yet to see anything like this in the news. Thats crazy to think the NSA is helping companies with trade secrets.
  - mcphilip 13y ago
    Innocent until proven guilty applies, of course, but there's an irony in the dismissal of a notion as crazy when juxtaposed with all the other Snowden revelations.
    - wil421 13y ago
      I am too naive...
  - vidarh 13y ago
    So crazy that the EU parliament was probing US intelligence abuse via ECHELON already 13-14 years ago: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/820352.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/820352.stm
  - tobltobs 13y ago
    "Thats crazy to think the NSA is helping companies with trade secrets." For Americans Europeans are crazy, aren't they? For me and a lot of other Europeans (most I think) it would be crazy (stupid) not to believe that the NSA is spying for american companies.
- alan_cx 13y ago
  "Do you have a source for that?" Yeah, I get the reason for asking that, but as a question, its rather devalued these days as far as the US and its TLA's are concerned. Given the disturbing unrestrained scope of US spying its reasonable to start with the assumption that the US has stolen any information that exists and used it to promote itself at the expense of even its allies. Problem is, when the likes of the NSA boldly claim to be able to access literally anything, anywhere, we must assume that all information and data are compromised. Doing anything different would be negligence. Now the USA is in the same position Iraq was prior to the illegal invasion. It now has to prove a negative. Here is why: Iraq was accused by the US and its lap dogs of having WMD (which incidentally was redefined to stitch up Iraq. Prior, WMD was understood to mean nukes. It got re-defined to mean bio and chem), and was expected to prove that it did not have them, or face the consequences. It failed in US eyes, and the US responded by killing many thousands of Iraq's people in its OTT invasion of "shock and awe". This was impossible as it is impossible to prove a negative. Iraq could not win in any way. Now, I think, the rest of the world, including its allies, would be reasonable in suspecting the US of having anything it likes in data terms, and must now prove it has not in order to regain any level of confidence. The US has to prove that it has not literally stolen money, IP, and business form non US companies by using stolen data to its advantage. The US has been stinging in its fines for banks acting illegally and defrauding government and public, acting like a moral god. Well, the same standards must apply to the US. If the US cannot prove its innocence, the rest of the world has every right to act in response. Unfair, and very difficult, but the US did set that standard. Like Iraq, the US must now some how prove its innocence. Or admit to its wrong doing. The UK had no defence here either. We conspired in this. And I as a UK voter would like to know what we got out of it. Or did the US steal our information too? I wonder what Aussies and Kiwis think. Are we willing partners who knew what was really going on, and getting something valuable out of it, or were we all duped by the Americans? Also, given the fact that the NSA is government organisation, it could be argued that what the US has engaged in is literally an act of war. There for its reasonable for countries like Germany, or regions like the EU, to investigate the US and if found guilty, demand reparations. IMHO, its getting close to cards on table time, or the US get treated like an outcast. Or, do we do what we always do, and ignore it? I say it time to take a stand. If we dont, we all might as well make our countries US states and be done with it.
- yk 13y ago
  2001 EU Parliament Report: Echelon Global Private and Commercial Communications Interception System [0] 10.5.1. Strategic industrial espionage by the intelligence services After the end of the Cold War, intelligence service capacity was released and it can now be used in other areas. The United States readily admits that some of its intelligence service's activities also concern industry. This includes, for example,, monitoring of the observance of economic sanctions, compliance with rules on the supply of weapons and dual-use goods, developments on commodities markets and events on the international financial markets. The rapporteur's findings are that the US services are not alone in their involvement in these spheres, nor is there any serious criticism of this. Before our enternal Innenminister accuses me of naive anti-americanism, let me also point out section 2.5 and 3.3.3. [0] http://cryptome.org/echelon-ep.htm#2 http://cryptome.org/echelon-ep.htm#2
wil421 13y ago
Could you provide some information where the NSA conducted Industrial Espionage? Merkel is a politician so I could see why she was targeted. As far as I know China is the only one being blamed for Industrial Espionage. NSA is snooping on citizens and interest groups. Note: I am no way in favor of any snooping on any countries citizens foreign or domestic.
- Zigurd 13y ago
  Snowden revealed NSA hacked into Petrobras ahead of an important oilfield auction. The only use for that information would be setting bids. It's no small thing. Bids with insider information could cost Brasil tens of billions of dollars.
  - wil421 13y ago
    That could be a side effect of tapping into a network hub or something. Does Petrobas have any ties to organized crime? I dont see where it says they passed that info to American companies. Please dont think I am downplaying this I am just trying to understand why. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-brazil-oil-petrobras http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-braz...
    - mladenkovacevic 13y ago
      It's funny how you peg the Chinese industrial spying as very clear-cut and obviously malevolent, but grasp at straws to justify the Pertobas spying as somehow motivated by good-guy American trying to bust some organized crime ring.
      - wil421 13y ago
        Show me the slides I want to see the evidence myself. All I am seeing now is the words of various reporters. I am trying to grasp at something that would justify it. Its beyond belief that they are actually doing this. Who's the good guys in this world or are the "people" the only good guys left?
4354325425 13y ago
> Turns out, there are quite a few instances where German companies had their trade secrets stolen by FRENCH [1] intelligence agencies, which in turn gave those secrets to FRENCH competitors. Fixed that for you. Please produce the articles about US companies benefiting from economic espionage. [1] http://www.france24.com/en/20110104-france-industrial-espionage-economy-germany-russia-china-business/ http://www.france24.com/en/20110104-france-industrial-espion...
- malandrew 13y ago
  You know that the NSA doesn't have to give information to US companies for industrial espionage to have occurred. Any of the hundreds of thousands of Americans indirectly employed contractors providing services to the NSA could have committed industrial espionage. If you don't think people at Booz Allen, Stratfor and other companies largely staff by psychopaths are unlikely to engage in such unethical activities, I have a bridge to sell you. Individuals are to be assumed innocent until proven guilty, but organizations being made up of many individuals, some of which are likely guilty to to statistical frequency of guilty people in a random population of people, are to be assumed guilty until proven innocent. If we know anything for certain from the last ~7 months, it's that "trust us, we're not doing anything wrong" is a bald-faced lie.
gaius 13y ago
I am awaiting the revelation that Boeing was privy to Airbus secrets. If forthcoming, that would be a bombshell.
- tedunangst 13y ago
  Been there, done that. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/820758.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/820758.stm (Thursday, 6 July, 2000)

bananacurve 13y ago

> German companies had their trade secrets stolen by American intelligence agencies, which in turn gave those secrets to US competitors Do you have a source for that? As far as I can tell Germany wants tighter intelligence integration with the US and howls at the slightest mention of even reducing the size of US military bases on German soil.

wil421 13y ago
>German companies had their trade secrets stolen by American intelligence agencies, which in turn gave those secrets to US competitors. I have yet to see anything like this in the news. Thats crazy to think the NSA is helping companies with trade secrets.
- mcphilip 13y ago
  Innocent until proven guilty applies, of course, but there's an irony in the dismissal of a notion as crazy when juxtaposed with all the other Snowden revelations.
  - wil421 13y ago
    I am too naive...
- vidarh 13y ago
  So crazy that the EU parliament was probing US intelligence abuse via ECHELON already 13-14 years ago: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/820352.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/820352.stm
- tobltobs 13y ago
  "Thats crazy to think the NSA is helping companies with trade secrets." For Americans Europeans are crazy, aren't they? For me and a lot of other Europeans (most I think) it would be crazy (stupid) not to believe that the NSA is spying for american companies.
alan_cx 13y ago
"Do you have a source for that?" Yeah, I get the reason for asking that, but as a question, its rather devalued these days as far as the US and its TLA's are concerned. Given the disturbing unrestrained scope of US spying its reasonable to start with the assumption that the US has stolen any information that exists and used it to promote itself at the expense of even its allies. Problem is, when the likes of the NSA boldly claim to be able to access literally anything, anywhere, we must assume that all information and data are compromised. Doing anything different would be negligence. Now the USA is in the same position Iraq was prior to the illegal invasion. It now has to prove a negative. Here is why: Iraq was accused by the US and its lap dogs of having WMD (which incidentally was redefined to stitch up Iraq. Prior, WMD was understood to mean nukes. It got re-defined to mean bio and chem), and was expected to prove that it did not have them, or face the consequences. It failed in US eyes, and the US responded by killing many thousands of Iraq's people in its OTT invasion of "shock and awe". This was impossible as it is impossible to prove a negative. Iraq could not win in any way. Now, I think, the rest of the world, including its allies, would be reasonable in suspecting the US of having anything it likes in data terms, and must now prove it has not in order to regain any level of confidence. The US has to prove that it has not literally stolen money, IP, and business form non US companies by using stolen data to its advantage. The US has been stinging in its fines for banks acting illegally and defrauding government and public, acting like a moral god. Well, the same standards must apply to the US. If the US cannot prove its innocence, the rest of the world has every right to act in response. Unfair, and very difficult, but the US did set that standard. Like Iraq, the US must now some how prove its innocence. Or admit to its wrong doing. The UK had no defence here either. We conspired in this. And I as a UK voter would like to know what we got out of it. Or did the US steal our information too? I wonder what Aussies and Kiwis think. Are we willing partners who knew what was really going on, and getting something valuable out of it, or were we all duped by the Americans? Also, given the fact that the NSA is government organisation, it could be argued that what the US has engaged in is literally an act of war. There for its reasonable for countries like Germany, or regions like the EU, to investigate the US and if found guilty, demand reparations. IMHO, its getting close to cards on table time, or the US get treated like an outcast. Or, do we do what we always do, and ignore it? I say it time to take a stand. If we dont, we all might as well make our countries US states and be done with it.
yk 13y ago
2001 EU Parliament Report: Echelon Global Private and Commercial Communications Interception System [0] 10.5.1. Strategic industrial espionage by the intelligence services After the end of the Cold War, intelligence service capacity was released and it can now be used in other areas. The United States readily admits that some of its intelligence service's activities also concern industry. This includes, for example,, monitoring of the observance of economic sanctions, compliance with rules on the supply of weapons and dual-use goods, developments on commodities markets and events on the international financial markets. The rapporteur's findings are that the US services are not alone in their involvement in these spheres, nor is there any serious criticism of this. Before our enternal Innenminister accuses me of naive anti-americanism, let me also point out section 2.5 and 3.3.3. [0] http://cryptome.org/echelon-ep.htm#2 http://cryptome.org/echelon-ep.htm#2

wil421 13y ago

Could you provide some information where the NSA conducted Industrial Espionage? Merkel is a politician so I could see why she was targeted. As far as I know China is the only one being blamed for Industrial Espionage. NSA is snooping on citizens and interest groups. Note: I am no way in favor of any snooping on any countries citizens foreign or domestic.

Zigurd 13y ago
Snowden revealed NSA hacked into Petrobras ahead of an important oilfield auction. The only use for that information would be setting bids. It's no small thing. Bids with insider information could cost Brasil tens of billions of dollars.
- wil421 13y ago
  That could be a side effect of tapping into a network hub or something. Does Petrobas have any ties to organized crime? I dont see where it says they passed that info to American companies. Please dont think I am downplaying this I am just trying to understand why. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-brazil-oil-petrobras http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-braz...
  - mladenkovacevic 13y ago
    It's funny how you peg the Chinese industrial spying as very clear-cut and obviously malevolent, but grasp at straws to justify the Pertobas spying as somehow motivated by good-guy American trying to bust some organized crime ring.
    - wil421 13y ago
      Show me the slides I want to see the evidence myself. All I am seeing now is the words of various reporters. I am trying to grasp at something that would justify it. Its beyond belief that they are actually doing this. Who's the good guys in this world or are the "people" the only good guys left?

4354325425 13y ago

> Turns out, there are quite a few instances where German companies had their trade secrets stolen by FRENCH [1] intelligence agencies, which in turn gave those secrets to FRENCH competitors. Fixed that for you. Please produce the articles about US companies benefiting from economic espionage. [1] http://www.france24.com/en/20110104-france-industrial-espionage-economy-germany-russia-china-business/ http://www.france24.com/en/20110104-france-industrial-espion...

malandrew 13y ago
You know that the NSA doesn't have to give information to US companies for industrial espionage to have occurred. Any of the hundreds of thousands of Americans indirectly employed contractors providing services to the NSA could have committed industrial espionage. If you don't think people at Booz Allen, Stratfor and other companies largely staff by psychopaths are unlikely to engage in such unethical activities, I have a bridge to sell you. Individuals are to be assumed innocent until proven guilty, but organizations being made up of many individuals, some of which are likely guilty to to statistical frequency of guilty people in a random population of people, are to be assumed guilty until proven innocent. If we know anything for certain from the last ~7 months, it's that "trust us, we're not doing anything wrong" is a bald-faced lie.

gaius 13y ago

I am awaiting the revelation that Boeing was privy to Airbus secrets. If forthcoming, that would be a bombshell.

tedunangst 13y ago
Been there, done that. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/820758.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/820758.stm (Thursday, 6 July, 2000)