5 ms·

That doesn't alter the fact that they are much more in control of what most users do, yet people regard Microsoft as the one we should be afraid of. And how wo

by trezor 17y ago

That doesn't alter the fact that they are much more in control of what most users do, yet people regard Microsoft as the one we should be afraid of. And how would you know if you send mail to someone using gmail or gmail hosted that google doesn't use this information against you? You don't. I'm not saying we need to shut down Google, just that I find it odd that most of the FOSS world still regards Microsoft as the one we should be afraid of and avoid at all cost. After all: Google does have its arsenal of closed-source solutions with varying degrees of lock-in and little to no options for opting out once your data is harvested. If the day comes that the government wants to go big brother on us, I'm pretty sure Google and/or their data will first on the list of things they want to get under their control, not Microsoft.

ErrantX 17y ago
Hmmm well yes but your levelling a BIG claim against Google there. Any proof to back up the idea they might abuse data? If not then what foundation does your mis-trust have? My point still stands though - if you dont trust them with your data dont use them. If you dont trust your data will be safe in future dont use them. If the "big brother" future ever happens I suspect which company your with will be the least of our problems :) Indeed I would argue that going with a larger company (especially one that has refused to hand over data already) is more sensible - because smaller ones have no power against governments.
- trezor 17y ago
  Not so much making big claims as airing the possibility. Just saying that avoiding Google entirely these days is harder than it might seem. Since so many people use Google's services chances are they might wind up with some of your data one way or the other, with your name attached. And like I said, I'm not saying they are evil and blah blah, I just find the lack of scepticism towards Google somewhat odd when people are screaming bloody murder over any and every thing Microsoft does.
- shiranaihito 17y ago
  > Any proof to back up the idea they might abuse data? There's no need for proof, and it would be really difficult to find even if they were already doing unspeakable things with the world's data. The problem is that the data is there, ready to be abused when a Google executive happens to make that decision. Imagine sitting next to a conveyor belt shifting an endless stream of cheese cakes past you. You know they're not your cheese cakes, and that it would be inappropriate to take one. Now suppose you also knew that even if you did stuff your face with the cheese cakes whizzing past, there's no way you could get caught. Now suppose that you knew a guy who'd pay you truckloads of money for a few cheese cakes. And finally, suppose that the government stepped in and insisted that you leave the room and let them watch over the cheese cakes.
  - ErrantX 17y ago
    There is need for proof - or even some kind of suggestion. Otherwise it's just a scare story :) YES consider what data Google stores about you and if you feel comfortable with it. But to suggest they are or plan to do something evil with it you need to actually come up with something more cohesive than, say, a feeling. Example: I can suggest your bank could be doing all SORTS of things with your data - potentially supremely damaging stuff.... but you trust them, right? ;) Capacity to do something and trust are different things. So I say again: if you dont trust them. Dont use them. :)
    - encoderer 17y ago
      "Example: I can suggest your bank could be doing all SORTS of things with your data - potentially supremely damaging stuff.... but you trust them, right? ;)" No. Of course I don't. Unless you're banking at "Wee Lil Credite Unione" you'd be foolish to trust your bank. But I have no choice. I do use a Credit Union for some of my financial needs but when it comes to IRAs, Brokerage Accounts, ETFs, etc, I have only the choice between a large corporate bank and a boutique brokerage with much higher fees.And business banking brings a whole different set of requirements. Reckless profit-seeking bank, fueled by bonus-hungry execs, levied vast damage to the US economy. I don't trust them. That idea is almost humorous. But i need them. And like it or not, I need Google. We all do. I dare say that the banking sector might not have been best choice of analogy.
- encoderer 17y ago
  The proof? Come on, man, I admire Google as much as the next developer does... Maps, Gmail, these things were simply stunning products when they released (and still are). But they are a major American corporation. They employ a number of people in high-ranking positions who have very large compensation packages that are tied to profits and stock price. I'd wager that nearly every working American can tell you stories about abuses of American corporations... dozens of stories... And most could probably tell you some that they themselves have witnessed as an employee. The stock-price-driven mentality in management at large American publicly traded companies puts emphasis entirely on short term, quarter-by-quarter profits. I don't mind being slightly inflammatory in saying that anybody with a little _wisdom_ treats all these corporations with suspicion. And you'd be a fool not to. These are not people: lives will not be ruined by a presumption of guilty-until-proven-innocent. Giving these companies the freedom we give people to operate freely until proven guilty is what results in things like Enron and real lives being shattered. Google is not a bunch of hippie kashi-eating hackers anymore. Not for a long, long time. It's a bunch of corporatist managers who love money just like every other company. I'm a software developer and a startup founder. I have the same dreams many here do, the same I'm sure Sergey and Larry Page did. But come on. Don't be so foolish. Google is skilled at marketing and branding, but you're surely smart--nearly all here are. Don't blur the line between admiration and worship.
  - ErrantX 17y ago
    > don't mind being slightly inflammatory in saying that anybody with a little _wisdom_ treats all these corporations with suspicion. And you'd be a fool not to. Im 100% in agreement with that statement. But there is a vast difference between being careful/suspicious/analytical and saying "they probably sell my data". For the latter I want to see proof - otherwise I feel set against the idea because it smacks of anti-corporation fear.
    - stcredzero 17y ago
      I worked as a consultant maintaining commodities trading software for a multinational petroleum corp. They make money because they do business everywhere and because of that, they have intimate local information about everywhere. A lot of that information, they cannot use for legal reasons. But there is a remainder that they can use legally to turn a profit. And in a company as big as that, some young turk is going to figure it out and make a name for himself. It's a certainty that this will also happen with Google. A lot of information passes through them. A lot of it can't be exploited for legal reasons. Some young turk there is probably figuring out a way that it can be legally exploited, and we on he outside aren't necessarily going to be happy about it.
tsuraan 17y ago
People tend to judge entities based on their actions, not their capabilities. Microsoft has acted as a rampaging barbarian horde, happily destroying competitors and allies alike. Google employs hundreds of students every summer to work on random open-source projects. Google _could_ be evil if they wanted to, but so far there isn't any evidence that they have done so. Microsoft has been a force of destruction in the world, and there is no evidence that they have any desire to do otherwise. Which entity is more deserving of fear?
- shiranaihito 17y ago
  > Google employs hundreds of students every summer to work on random open-source projects. They do lots of things to generate good will, so there's just no way they could possibly be doing anything evil, right? They even say "Don't Be Evil", so there's no way they could be evil, right? People tend to judge entities based on the actions they can see.

by trezor 17y ago

ErrantX 17y ago

Hmmm well yes but your levelling a BIG claim against Google there. Any proof to back up the idea they might abuse data? If not then what foundation does your mis-trust have? My point still stands though - if you dont trust them with your data dont use them. If you dont trust your data will be safe in future dont use them. If the "big brother" future ever happens I suspect which company your with will be the least of our problems :) Indeed I would argue that going with a larger company (especially one that has refused to hand over data already) is more sensible - because smaller ones have no power against governments.

trezor 17y ago
Not so much making big claims as airing the possibility. Just saying that avoiding Google entirely these days is harder than it might seem. Since so many people use Google's services chances are they might wind up with some of your data one way or the other, with your name attached. And like I said, I'm not saying they are evil and blah blah, I just find the lack of scepticism towards Google somewhat odd when people are screaming bloody murder over any and every thing Microsoft does.
shiranaihito 17y ago
> Any proof to back up the idea they might abuse data? There's no need for proof, and it would be really difficult to find even if they were already doing unspeakable things with the world's data. The problem is that the data is there, ready to be abused when a Google executive happens to make that decision. Imagine sitting next to a conveyor belt shifting an endless stream of cheese cakes past you. You know they're not your cheese cakes, and that it would be inappropriate to take one. Now suppose you also knew that even if you did stuff your face with the cheese cakes whizzing past, there's no way you could get caught. Now suppose that you knew a guy who'd pay you truckloads of money for a few cheese cakes. And finally, suppose that the government stepped in and insisted that you leave the room and let them watch over the cheese cakes.
- ErrantX 17y ago
  There is need for proof - or even some kind of suggestion. Otherwise it's just a scare story :) YES consider what data Google stores about you and if you feel comfortable with it. But to suggest they are or plan to do something evil with it you need to actually come up with something more cohesive than, say, a feeling. Example: I can suggest your bank could be doing all SORTS of things with your data - potentially supremely damaging stuff.... but you trust them, right? ;) Capacity to do something and trust are different things. So I say again: if you dont trust them. Dont use them. :)
  - encoderer 17y ago
    "Example: I can suggest your bank could be doing all SORTS of things with your data - potentially supremely damaging stuff.... but you trust them, right? ;)" No. Of course I don't. Unless you're banking at "Wee Lil Credite Unione" you'd be foolish to trust your bank. But I have no choice. I do use a Credit Union for some of my financial needs but when it comes to IRAs, Brokerage Accounts, ETFs, etc, I have only the choice between a large corporate bank and a boutique brokerage with much higher fees.And business banking brings a whole different set of requirements. Reckless profit-seeking bank, fueled by bonus-hungry execs, levied vast damage to the US economy. I don't trust them. That idea is almost humorous. But i need them. And like it or not, I need Google. We all do. I dare say that the banking sector might not have been best choice of analogy.
encoderer 17y ago
The proof? Come on, man, I admire Google as much as the next developer does... Maps, Gmail, these things were simply stunning products when they released (and still are). But they are a major American corporation. They employ a number of people in high-ranking positions who have very large compensation packages that are tied to profits and stock price. I'd wager that nearly every working American can tell you stories about abuses of American corporations... dozens of stories... And most could probably tell you some that they themselves have witnessed as an employee. The stock-price-driven mentality in management at large American publicly traded companies puts emphasis entirely on short term, quarter-by-quarter profits. I don't mind being slightly inflammatory in saying that anybody with a little _wisdom_ treats all these corporations with suspicion. And you'd be a fool not to. These are not people: lives will not be ruined by a presumption of guilty-until-proven-innocent. Giving these companies the freedom we give people to operate freely until proven guilty is what results in things like Enron and real lives being shattered. Google is not a bunch of hippie kashi-eating hackers anymore. Not for a long, long time. It's a bunch of corporatist managers who love money just like every other company. I'm a software developer and a startup founder. I have the same dreams many here do, the same I'm sure Sergey and Larry Page did. But come on. Don't be so foolish. Google is skilled at marketing and branding, but you're surely smart--nearly all here are. Don't blur the line between admiration and worship.
- ErrantX 17y ago
  > don't mind being slightly inflammatory in saying that anybody with a little _wisdom_ treats all these corporations with suspicion. And you'd be a fool not to. Im 100% in agreement with that statement. But there is a vast difference between being careful/suspicious/analytical and saying "they probably sell my data". For the latter I want to see proof - otherwise I feel set against the idea because it smacks of anti-corporation fear.
  - stcredzero 17y ago
    I worked as a consultant maintaining commodities trading software for a multinational petroleum corp. They make money because they do business everywhere and because of that, they have intimate local information about everywhere. A lot of that information, they cannot use for legal reasons. But there is a remainder that they can use legally to turn a profit. And in a company as big as that, some young turk is going to figure it out and make a name for himself. It's a certainty that this will also happen with Google. A lot of information passes through them. A lot of it can't be exploited for legal reasons. Some young turk there is probably figuring out a way that it can be legally exploited, and we on he outside aren't necessarily going to be happy about it.

tsuraan 17y ago

People tend to judge entities based on their actions, not their capabilities. Microsoft has acted as a rampaging barbarian horde, happily destroying competitors and allies alike. Google employs hundreds of students every summer to work on random open-source projects. Google _could_ be evil if they wanted to, but so far there isn't any evidence that they have done so. Microsoft has been a force of destruction in the world, and there is no evidence that they have any desire to do otherwise. Which entity is more deserving of fear?

shiranaihito 17y ago
> Google employs hundreds of students every summer to work on random open-source projects. They do lots of things to generate good will, so there's just no way they could possibly be doing anything evil, right? They even say "Don't Be Evil", so there's no way they could be evil, right? People tend to judge entities based on the actions they can see.