5 ms·

Well, that was somewhat predictable. You've got a lot of managers. Some of them don't like to code, and regardless, all of them certainly need to be employed. W

by Nimi 13y ago

Well, that was somewhat predictable. You've got a lot of managers. Some of them don't like to code, and regardless, all of them certainly need to be employed. What would they do if their shop started doing XP? One or two can become PMs or coaches, but what happens if you have much more managers? At the risk of sounding somewhat loony, I think Marx said something about the middle class (in his definition: the class between the proletariat engaging in production, and the ruling class of capitalists) trying to preserve the benefits it gets from its social role. Can't find a citation though.

vanderZwan 13y ago
It's funny that there is a quote, recently made famous by Civ 4, stating "the bureaucracy is expanding to meet the expanding needs of the bureaucracy," while management would be a much better fit than bureaucracy IMO. Also, in practice civil services are much more efficient in many situations than their market alternatives (possibly because they pretty much epitomise the proletariat you mentioned).
- mathattack 13y ago
  I haven't shared your experience with efficient civil service. In the US, everything without market pressure fills with bloat.
  - vanderZwan 13y ago
    In terms of customer interaction it's obviously a terrible experience, even when you do meet helpful people. But have you actually gone through a process where the civil service was more expensive than the market alternative? By and large, the empirical data does not support the public perception of government (and remember there are many layers of "government") being hugely wasteful, especially when looking at money wasted on administration compared to the market. http://www.governmentisgood.com/articles.php?aid=20 http://www.governmentisgood.com/articles.php?aid=20 Also, the government is under a market pressure of a sort: can I "sell" this budget to the people who have to vote for me as a politician? EDIT: Of course, I'm not saying that civil service is good by definition - just that when done right there are places where it's a much better solution than a free market one. Also, corruption can be an issue of course - as I understand one of the big reasons Greece is in trouble is because of the corrupt civil service, which caused it to bloat as well.
    - mathattack 13y ago
      Catholic schools generally get by on less money per puli than public. State run liquor stores are more expensive than private. Even still, it's hard to be more expensive when your cost of capital is near zero. (Taxpayers foot the bill)
      - vanderZwan 13y ago
        > State run liquor stores are more expensive than private. You mean the liquor stores in countries where liquor is extra heavily taxed in an attempt to curb alcoholism? Yeah, no. In fact, that that is exactly what I mean: you are confusing cost-to-the-consumer with cost-to-run.
vellum 13y ago
The middle classes maintain themselves to an ever increasing extent directly out of revenue, they are a burden weighing heavily on the working base and increase the social security and power of the upper ten thousand. https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1863/theories-surplus-value/ch18.htm https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1863/theories-su...
Arnor 13y ago
Amen. I just looked at the employee section of a previous employer's website and saw that they actually have as many managers as developers. Seriously 1 manager for every developer.

by Nimi 13y ago

vanderZwan 13y ago

It's funny that there is a quote, recently made famous by Civ 4, stating "the bureaucracy is expanding to meet the expanding needs of the bureaucracy," while management would be a much better fit than bureaucracy IMO. Also, in practice civil services are much more efficient in many situations than their market alternatives (possibly because they pretty much epitomise the proletariat you mentioned).

mathattack 13y ago
I haven't shared your experience with efficient civil service. In the US, everything without market pressure fills with bloat.
- vanderZwan 13y ago
  In terms of customer interaction it's obviously a terrible experience, even when you do meet helpful people. But have you actually gone through a process where the civil service was more expensive than the market alternative? By and large, the empirical data does not support the public perception of government (and remember there are many layers of "government") being hugely wasteful, especially when looking at money wasted on administration compared to the market. http://www.governmentisgood.com/articles.php?aid=20 http://www.governmentisgood.com/articles.php?aid=20 Also, the government is under a market pressure of a sort: can I "sell" this budget to the people who have to vote for me as a politician? EDIT: Of course, I'm not saying that civil service is good by definition - just that when done right there are places where it's a much better solution than a free market one. Also, corruption can be an issue of course - as I understand one of the big reasons Greece is in trouble is because of the corrupt civil service, which caused it to bloat as well.
  - mathattack 13y ago
    Catholic schools generally get by on less money per puli than public. State run liquor stores are more expensive than private. Even still, it's hard to be more expensive when your cost of capital is near zero. (Taxpayers foot the bill)
    - vanderZwan 13y ago
      > State run liquor stores are more expensive than private. You mean the liquor stores in countries where liquor is extra heavily taxed in an attempt to curb alcoholism? Yeah, no. In fact, that that is exactly what I mean: you are confusing cost-to-the-consumer with cost-to-run.

vellum 13y ago

The middle classes maintain themselves to an ever increasing extent directly out of revenue, they are a burden weighing heavily on the working base and increase the social security and power of the upper ten thousand. https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1863/theories-surplus-value/ch18.htm https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1863/theories-su...

Arnor 13y ago

Amen. I just looked at the employee section of a previous employer's website and saw that they actually have as many managers as developers. Seriously 1 manager for every developer.