7 ms·

Lemme get this straight, Brian: Rather than refunding the dollar value ($35,104.11) of the original, clearly botched transaction, you ended up giving him the 4

Lemme get this straight, Brian: Rather than refunding the dollar value ($35,104.11) of the original, clearly botched transaction, you ended up giving him the 40 BTC at their current trading value (about $560), that is, for net a loss of $35,104 - $22,400 = $12,704? And you think $50 plus a thank-you note(!) is enough to make him whole on this loss?

makomk 13y ago
Don't worry, based on their past behaviour I'm pretty sure they'd have managed to refund him the dollar value if the price of Bitcoin skyrocketed.
- EGreg 13y ago
  Funny dynamics for bitcoin to be used as a currency For now its swings are like the Zimbabwe dollar
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - AnneOminous 13y ago
    This isn't a failure of Bitcoin. It's a failure of the market. Bitcoin has an approximate "intrinsic value", which in economic terms is a bit above the cost of mining. Current market price has been very far from that. Bitcoin market right now is pretty much the definition of a bubble. Beware. In a "bubble" market, your money can disappear overnight. But again: that's not Bitcoin's fault. It's the fault of idiots vastly and irrationally driving up market prices. This is really a textbook lesson in why Wall Street does not represent the "real" exonomy.
    - dragonwriter 13y ago
      > Bitcoin has an approximate "intrinsic value", which in economic terms is a bit above the cost of mining. The current cost of mining is a rough replacement cost of bitcoin (and thus, in a sane market, ought to be a ceiling on its market value, since if the exchange cost is higher than that, you are better of mining then buying), but since mining isn't inherently reversible its not an intrinsic value.
      - AnneOminous 13y ago
        Quote: "...but since mining isn't inherently reversible its not an intrinsic value." It IS "value", because the resources used for mining have measurable value, and can be traded for things other than Bitcoins. It may be an indirect measure of value, but it's still a measure of value.
        21echoes 13y ago
        carbon emissions from a coal plant do not have the "intrinsic value" of the coal that produced them. bitcoins from a miner's computer do not have the "intrinsic value" of the electricity and silicon that produced them.
        AnneOminous 13y ago
        The exhaust from your Chevy also doesn't have the "intrinsic worth" of the oil that it ultimately came from, either. Nor does the electricity from my solar cells have the "intrinsic worth" of the silicon they were made of. So what? That is about the farthest thing from a valid analogy I've seen in a long time.
        dragonwriter 13y ago
        > The exhaust from your Chevy also doesn't have the "intrinsic worth" of the oil that it ultimately came from, either. The difference between it and Bitcoin here is that no one is claiming that automotive exhaust has intrinsic worth due to the resources expended to produce it.
        AnneOminous 13y ago
        No, you're still not getting it. The VALUE is not indirect (i.e., extrinsic). The METHOD OF MEASUREMENT is indirect. Those are two different things. One does not imply the other. If I measure the "worth" of your automobile in units of "old Chrysler convertibles", that doesn't mean your automobile has any more or less economic value than if I measure it in helium balloons. The method of measurement (if it's done properly) does not affect the actual value. In the case of Bitcoin, it CAN be traded directly for goods, not dollars. There is nothing REAL distinguishing it from any other commodity, such as rice. The value is roughly equivalent to the cost of production + distribution. I take that back. There IS one difference, but (at this time) it is minor: that is the ultimately limited supply, but that isn't even remotely close enough yet to affect a RATIONAL market. An EXTRINSIC value, on the other hand, and to use Wikipedia's example, is like the "value" of a song played on a guitar. It has its own subjective and economic values, but that is completely separate from the cost of manufacturing the guitar. This is NOT even remotely the same situation as Bitcoin.
- Buge 13y ago
  Have you heard of that happening? Here some cases where coinbase uses the original price even after a price increase: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1qlvgj/psa_rest_easy_with_coinbase/ http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1qlvgj/psa_rest_eas... http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1qlvgj/psa_rest_easy_with_coinbase/cde69au http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1qlvgj/psa_rest_eas... http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1cxmuf/bought_5_btc_from_coinbase_at_65usd_and_received/ http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1cxmuf/bought_5_btc... And in this current case, coinbase used the new price even though the price decreased. So whether the price increases or decreases, coinbase is taking a loss and gives the money to the consumers.
jeremyrwelch 13y ago
Don't be ridiculous. Sure, the order was delayed, but there is no reason why they should have refunded the entire order. Kudos to Brian and team for getting on top of this and solving the problem quickly. They executed the order as originally promised, admitted their mistake, and gave him a credit for the inconvenience. I've executed many transactions with Coinbase and although one of my transactions was delayed briefly, I've been very pleased overall with the service. They are go much farther than most other Bitcoin exchanges and services, which barely have any support channels and have frequently stolen user money entirely.
- apalmer 13y ago
  Its not ridiculous at all. With that much spread and at prices as high and fluctuating as much as they currently are you cannot expect to take 10 DAYS for a transaction of this nature. Honestly, looking at this from the outside what is the difference between this an actual larceny? A large purchase comes in while the commodity is priced high, the commodity is not purchased but instead funds are held on to while the price drops and then the bitcoins are purchased at the lower price and the company pockets the difference... Not even saying that foul play truly happened, but instead saying you cant run a business whos actions LOOK indistinguishable from foul play and expect to stay in business... If you're in a business where you can tell customers i lost 30% of the value of your transaction due to a mistake on our end its eventually going to turn into a scam, even if that wasn't the initial intention... its just too much temptation
  - jeremyrwelch 13y ago
    This is definitely ridiculous. The loss of value was not on the fault of Coinbase, but the result of market swings.
    - bsiddiqui 13y ago
      but he wasn't able to react to market swings for 5+ days after he was supposed to receive delivery
    - 13y ago
ffrryuu 13y ago
That't why when it comes to money, you should trust Wall Street over Startups...
- lolbertarian 13y ago
  Unfortunate, but true.
loceng 13y ago
CoinBase didn't say how they did it anywhere, did they? It would be good to get clarification though.
nilkn 13y ago
It sounds like they gave him $35k worth of bitcoins at their current price, which is more bitcoins than he would have received had the transaction went through at the earlier date. Maybe I'm completely misunderstanding though.
- opam2 13y ago
  Coinbase updated their comment after seeing the backlash.
  - nilkn 13y ago
    Ok, that would explain that. Thanks for the clarification.
  - devcpp 13y ago
    Huh, I'll remember the "take it to HN" option if I ever run into big problems with a high-tech company.
    - Loughla 13y ago
      That's pretty much the lesson learned for everyone here today. People won't see that you have to complete 18 steps with their customer service beforehand. Instead, they'll see complain on HN = instant gratification. Look for an increase in this kind of whinging in the very near future, and it won't be fun for anyone.
      - krapp 13y ago
        On the one hand, that kind of thing would probably bring the community down, but on the other, given how this site is such a tech company nexus, would that even be surprising?
    - forgottenpass 13y ago
      Oh, totally. You'll notice over time that Hacker News is the only way to contact google support without spending thousands of dollars on adwords.
tlrobinson 13y ago
If the price had gone up would you be ok with them refunding the dollars instead of honoring the original price of the "clearly botched transaction"?
- anonymoushn 13y ago
  No, I would expect the resolution most favorable to the customer in either situation. If Coinbase had a public policy about what will happen in situations like this, I would expect them to follow their policy. Since they do not, it is reasonable to assume that any time they resolve a situation like this in their own favor they were using the customer's order as a free options contract.
  - tlrobinson 13y ago
    I had Coinbase honor a price favorable to me after initially being declined, and have heard of the same thing happening to others.

makomk 13y ago

Don't worry, based on their past behaviour I'm pretty sure they'd have managed to refund him the dollar value if the price of Bitcoin skyrocketed.

EGreg 13y ago
Funny dynamics for bitcoin to be used as a currency For now its swings are like the Zimbabwe dollar
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- AnneOminous 13y ago
  This isn't a failure of Bitcoin. It's a failure of the market. Bitcoin has an approximate "intrinsic value", which in economic terms is a bit above the cost of mining. Current market price has been very far from that. Bitcoin market right now is pretty much the definition of a bubble. Beware. In a "bubble" market, your money can disappear overnight. But again: that's not Bitcoin's fault. It's the fault of idiots vastly and irrationally driving up market prices. This is really a textbook lesson in why Wall Street does not represent the "real" exonomy.
  - dragonwriter 13y ago
    > Bitcoin has an approximate "intrinsic value", which in economic terms is a bit above the cost of mining. The current cost of mining is a rough replacement cost of bitcoin (and thus, in a sane market, ought to be a ceiling on its market value, since if the exchange cost is higher than that, you are better of mining then buying), but since mining isn't inherently reversible its not an intrinsic value.
    - AnneOminous 13y ago
      Quote: "...but since mining isn't inherently reversible its not an intrinsic value." It IS "value", because the resources used for mining have measurable value, and can be traded for things other than Bitcoins. It may be an indirect measure of value, but it's still a measure of value.
      - 21echoes 13y ago
        carbon emissions from a coal plant do not have the "intrinsic value" of the coal that produced them. bitcoins from a miner's computer do not have the "intrinsic value" of the electricity and silicon that produced them.
        AnneOminous 13y ago
        The exhaust from your Chevy also doesn't have the "intrinsic worth" of the oil that it ultimately came from, either. Nor does the electricity from my solar cells have the "intrinsic worth" of the silicon they were made of. So what? That is about the farthest thing from a valid analogy I've seen in a long time.
        dragonwriter 13y ago
        > The exhaust from your Chevy also doesn't have the "intrinsic worth" of the oil that it ultimately came from, either. The difference between it and Bitcoin here is that no one is claiming that automotive exhaust has intrinsic worth due to the resources expended to produce it.
        AnneOminous 13y ago
        No, you're still not getting it. The VALUE is not indirect (i.e., extrinsic). The METHOD OF MEASUREMENT is indirect. Those are two different things. One does not imply the other. If I measure the "worth" of your automobile in units of "old Chrysler convertibles", that doesn't mean your automobile has any more or less economic value than if I measure it in helium balloons. The method of measurement (if it's done properly) does not affect the actual value. In the case of Bitcoin, it CAN be traded directly for goods, not dollars. There is nothing REAL distinguishing it from any other commodity, such as rice. The value is roughly equivalent to the cost of production + distribution. I take that back. There IS one difference, but (at this time) it is minor: that is the ultimately limited supply, but that isn't even remotely close enough yet to affect a RATIONAL market. An EXTRINSIC value, on the other hand, and to use Wikipedia's example, is like the "value" of a song played on a guitar. It has its own subjective and economic values, but that is completely separate from the cost of manufacturing the guitar. This is NOT even remotely the same situation as Bitcoin.
Buge 13y ago
Have you heard of that happening? Here some cases where coinbase uses the original price even after a price increase: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1qlvgj/psa_rest_easy_with_coinbase/ http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1qlvgj/psa_rest_eas... http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1qlvgj/psa_rest_easy_with_coinbase/cde69au http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1qlvgj/psa_rest_eas... http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1cxmuf/bought_5_btc_from_coinbase_at_65usd_and_received/ http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1cxmuf/bought_5_btc... And in this current case, coinbase used the new price even though the price decreased. So whether the price increases or decreases, coinbase is taking a loss and gives the money to the consumers.

jeremyrwelch 13y ago

Don't be ridiculous. Sure, the order was delayed, but there is no reason why they should have refunded the entire order. Kudos to Brian and team for getting on top of this and solving the problem quickly. They executed the order as originally promised, admitted their mistake, and gave him a credit for the inconvenience. I've executed many transactions with Coinbase and although one of my transactions was delayed briefly, I've been very pleased overall with the service. They are go much farther than most other Bitcoin exchanges and services, which barely have any support channels and have frequently stolen user money entirely.

apalmer 13y ago
Its not ridiculous at all. With that much spread and at prices as high and fluctuating as much as they currently are you cannot expect to take 10 DAYS for a transaction of this nature. Honestly, looking at this from the outside what is the difference between this an actual larceny? A large purchase comes in while the commodity is priced high, the commodity is not purchased but instead funds are held on to while the price drops and then the bitcoins are purchased at the lower price and the company pockets the difference... Not even saying that foul play truly happened, but instead saying you cant run a business whos actions LOOK indistinguishable from foul play and expect to stay in business... If you're in a business where you can tell customers i lost 30% of the value of your transaction due to a mistake on our end its eventually going to turn into a scam, even if that wasn't the initial intention... its just too much temptation
- jeremyrwelch 13y ago
  This is definitely ridiculous. The loss of value was not on the fault of Coinbase, but the result of market swings.
  - bsiddiqui 13y ago
    but he wasn't able to react to market swings for 5+ days after he was supposed to receive delivery
  - 13y ago

ffrryuu 13y ago

That't why when it comes to money, you should trust Wall Street over Startups...

lolbertarian 13y ago
Unfortunate, but true.

loceng 13y ago

CoinBase didn't say how they did it anywhere, did they? It would be good to get clarification though.

nilkn 13y ago

It sounds like they gave him $35k worth of bitcoins at their current price, which is more bitcoins than he would have received had the transaction went through at the earlier date. Maybe I'm completely misunderstanding though.

opam2 13y ago
Coinbase updated their comment after seeing the backlash.
- nilkn 13y ago
  Ok, that would explain that. Thanks for the clarification.
- devcpp 13y ago
  Huh, I'll remember the "take it to HN" option if I ever run into big problems with a high-tech company.
  - Loughla 13y ago
    That's pretty much the lesson learned for everyone here today. People won't see that you have to complete 18 steps with their customer service beforehand. Instead, they'll see complain on HN = instant gratification. Look for an increase in this kind of whinging in the very near future, and it won't be fun for anyone.
    - krapp 13y ago
      On the one hand, that kind of thing would probably bring the community down, but on the other, given how this site is such a tech company nexus, would that even be surprising?
  - forgottenpass 13y ago
    Oh, totally. You'll notice over time that Hacker News is the only way to contact google support without spending thousands of dollars on adwords.

tlrobinson 13y ago

If the price had gone up would you be ok with them refunding the dollars instead of honoring the original price of the "clearly botched transaction"?

anonymoushn 13y ago
No, I would expect the resolution most favorable to the customer in either situation. If Coinbase had a public policy about what will happen in situations like this, I would expect them to follow their policy. Since they do not, it is reasonable to assume that any time they resolve a situation like this in their own favor they were using the customer's order as a free options contract.
- tlrobinson 13y ago
  I had Coinbase honor a price favorable to me after initially being declined, and have heard of the same thing happening to others.