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> As a result, the investor is taking a material loss solely due to Bitcoin's failure to deliver. They are very careful not to use the word "invest" or "invest

by sheetjs 13y ago

> As a result, the investor is taking a material loss solely due to Bitcoin's failure to deliver. They are very careful not to use the word "invest" or "investment" or even remotely suggest that BTC is an investment. They merely discuss buying and selling BTC. This is akin to a marketplace for buying and selling Magic the Gathering cards. An MtG exchange doesn't treat the Wrath of God cards as an investment; in the same way, Coinbase doesn't treat BTC as an investment.

makomk 13y ago
He's taking a material loss regardless of whether he bought them as an investment or just to buy stuff with Bitcoins.
EGreg 13y ago
In a court case, the breach of contract will be evaluated and the losses incurred will be relevant whether or not the assets are an "investment". What kind of law will apply is up for debate.
- sheetjs 13y ago
  > breach of contract What breach of contract? Coinbase didn't agree to deliver by a specified date. I will emphasize the key phrase: > Coinbase makes no representations or warranties regarding the amount of time needed to complete processing There's a reason these CYA clauses exist. And the time frame (8 business days) isn't entirely unreasonable (in the sense that banks generally give themselves 3 days for ACH, with an additional 7 business day holding period if necessary). Downvoter: if there is some other contract that I am unaware of, please reply with a quote or link
  - FireBeyond 13y ago
    No, that doesn't work. There's a difference between fine print qualifying statements, and fine print explicitly contradicting statements. Your system can't say "Bitcoin deposit, 13 December", whilst your TOC says "eh, can be whenever we want".
    - sheetjs 13y ago
      So this counts as a dispute with Coinbase, and the terms for that are pretty clear: > 5.3 Disputes with Coinbase. If you think we have made an error, write to us at 14525 SW Millikan Way #26680 Beaverton OR, 97005, or email us at support at coinbase.com. In your correspondence, you must give us information sufficient to identify you, your account, and the transaction on which you believe an error occurred. You must contact us within 30 days after the transaction occurred. Within 90 days of receiving your request, we must either correct the error or explain to you why we believe the transaction was correct. The key phrase here is "Within 90 days of receiving your request, we must either correct the error or explain to you why we believe the transaction was correct." Notification must have happened after December 8, but let's say December 8. That means, at the very least, they have until March 8 to give an explanation. BTW: I agree that making the customer whole is the right thing to do, but strictly speaking they have time to respond. More generally, on the issue of online displays, I checked my bank's terms of use (http://www.tdbank.com/exc/pdf/internet_banking_agreement.pdf http://www.tdbank.com/exc/pdf/internet_banking_agreement.pdf) and it clearly says: > We agree to make reasonable efforts to ensure the full performance of the Bank’s Online Banking Service. > We are not responsible for any indirect, special, incidental or consequential damages arising in any way out of your use of the Bank’s Online Banking Service. They indemnify themselves against issues with the online display.
FireBeyond 13y ago
Certainly, to be exact, his decision to 'invest' is entirely separate from the functionality offered by Coinbase, et al. Duly noted, but if you can demonstrate a material loss due to the failure to deliver of another party, it would be hard to argue you don't have a civil case for losses / damages.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
axus 13y ago
Good analogy; you're also referencing how the MtGox domain started out as a Magic the Gathering exchange, right?

by sheetjs 13y ago

makomk 13y ago

He's taking a material loss regardless of whether he bought them as an investment or just to buy stuff with Bitcoins.

EGreg 13y ago

In a court case, the breach of contract will be evaluated and the losses incurred will be relevant whether or not the assets are an "investment". What kind of law will apply is up for debate.

sheetjs 13y ago
> breach of contract What breach of contract? Coinbase didn't agree to deliver by a specified date. I will emphasize the key phrase: > Coinbase makes no representations or warranties regarding the amount of time needed to complete processing There's a reason these CYA clauses exist. And the time frame (8 business days) isn't entirely unreasonable (in the sense that banks generally give themselves 3 days for ACH, with an additional 7 business day holding period if necessary). Downvoter: if there is some other contract that I am unaware of, please reply with a quote or link
- FireBeyond 13y ago
  No, that doesn't work. There's a difference between fine print qualifying statements, and fine print explicitly contradicting statements. Your system can't say "Bitcoin deposit, 13 December", whilst your TOC says "eh, can be whenever we want".
  - sheetjs 13y ago
    So this counts as a dispute with Coinbase, and the terms for that are pretty clear: > 5.3 Disputes with Coinbase. If you think we have made an error, write to us at 14525 SW Millikan Way #26680 Beaverton OR, 97005, or email us at support at coinbase.com. In your correspondence, you must give us information sufficient to identify you, your account, and the transaction on which you believe an error occurred. You must contact us within 30 days after the transaction occurred. Within 90 days of receiving your request, we must either correct the error or explain to you why we believe the transaction was correct. The key phrase here is "Within 90 days of receiving your request, we must either correct the error or explain to you why we believe the transaction was correct." Notification must have happened after December 8, but let's say December 8. That means, at the very least, they have until March 8 to give an explanation. BTW: I agree that making the customer whole is the right thing to do, but strictly speaking they have time to respond. More generally, on the issue of online displays, I checked my bank's terms of use (http://www.tdbank.com/exc/pdf/internet_banking_agreement.pdf http://www.tdbank.com/exc/pdf/internet_banking_agreement.pdf) and it clearly says: > We agree to make reasonable efforts to ensure the full performance of the Bank’s Online Banking Service. > We are not responsible for any indirect, special, incidental or consequential damages arising in any way out of your use of the Bank’s Online Banking Service. They indemnify themselves against issues with the online display.

FireBeyond 13y ago

Certainly, to be exact, his decision to 'invest' is entirely separate from the functionality offered by Coinbase, et al. Duly noted, but if you can demonstrate a material loss due to the failure to deliver of another party, it would be hard to argue you don't have a civil case for losses / damages.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

axus 13y ago

Good analogy; you're also referencing how the MtGox domain started out as a Magic the Gathering exchange, right?