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I started out doing desktop support for $15/hour. (I actually think I started out making less, but I'm not sure how much "less" was--perhaps $12/hour? so I quot

I started out doing desktop support for $15/hour. (I actually think I started out making less, but I'm not sure how much "less" was--perhaps $12/hour? so I quoted the higher number.) $49,500/year was after I spent over a year learning development, and our startup got bought out by a huge company, and I interviewed into a role at the big company as a developer. I also started out working for a subcontractor, much like Manny in the article. Indeed, I do think it's comparable. Manny also has lower expenses than I did, since he lives with his mom, and in a traditional way of looking at things, he has more "opportunities" open to him since he has a college degree and I was a dropout.

grecy 13y ago
> I started out doing desktop support for $15/hour. $15/hour * 40 hours a week * 52 weeks = $31k in 2001 dollars = $40,000 in 2012 dollars. That's still more that double Manny's income. > Manny also has lower expenses than I did, since he lives with his mom A person living on the streets has lower expenses than you too, but that doesn't mean it's by choice or a good thing.
- ericabiz 13y ago
  I didn't work full-time when I started there. College student, remember? I didn't have a full-time gig until I dropped out of college in 2001. BigCo refused to bring on part-time workers, so I quit school and interviewed into the developer role, which was FT and necessitated me dropping out of school. Edited my previous post to reflect correct timeline: 1999: Moved to Valley; got a job doing desktop support at a startup 2000: Startup gets bought by BigCo 2001: BigCo says they won't hire PT employees. I quit school to take $49,500/yr FT dev job at BigCo 2002: Quit dev job and started working on my own stuff (I had paying customers for my company in 2001, but 2002 was when I finally quit and went into consulting and web hosting full time.)
  - schrodinger 13y ago
    Ok great, so become a developer to make more money. What if he doesn't want to be a developer? What if he doesn't have the talent to become one? Then he has no right to complain? Is being a developer more noble than being a security guard? You have to realize we're lucky to be talented in a field that pays really well.
geogra4 13y ago
Is the solution for everyone to be a developer? What would that world look like? The world still needs people to do jobs like security, burger flipping, and stocking shelves until everything is automated. It's not even necessarily the pay level that is exploitative. It's the lack of job security and benefits that was once commonplace when a large percentage of the workforce was union.
selmnoo 13y ago
Implicit in your reasoning is the suggestion that a security guard doesn't deserve a dignified living wage. I disagree with that -- I think in a civilized society he should be able to afford his own place, provide for his daughter, give her rides as needed without sacrificing job security, etc. As the other poster mentioned, we /need/ such people... we need people who mow the lawns, people who flip burgers, people who shovel snow. We shouldn't think of them as humans that don't deserve a respectable living wage. re: luck, and making it in the valley Consider the fact that if there was someone quite like Bill Gates, same skillset, same personality, etc. starting out today, how far he'd be able to get. I would assert that it's unlikely that he'd be able to maneuver the SV world today and be able to get more than about 300k. But the real-life Bill Gates has some 60 billion dollar worth... so what's the issue? Clearly luck is a big factor.. you have to be at the right place at the right time, with the connections, with the money, etc. I have known way too many poor people who work unbelievably hard... so I just couldn't disagree more with what you have to say. I would like to respectfully suggest to you that you take some time out and maybe volunteer at a soup kitchen so that you are made more familiar with the real battles a lot of people face today. People like you and I, but without the social support, without the coveted connections and networks, without the job security, without the time to be able to learn a programming language without external pressures (like the pressure to just make money for this month's rent, so your daughter still has a roof on her head). It's very tough for them out there, and getting up is not as easy as you think it is.
- jedmeyers 13y ago
  "In a civilized society one should be able to afford his own place, provide for his daughter, give her rides as needed without sacrificing job security, etc" - should society provide a place for a person in a location of its choosing?
  - sentenza 13y ago
    Should the door in the location of your choosing have a guard? Two questions, same answer.
    - 13y ago
cmiles74 13y ago
Desktop support has and always will pay more than being a security guard in a parking lot. I did desktop support in the nineties as well and made decently more than my roommate who, oddly enough, worked in a parking garage. There is nothing comparable about a contractor who does desktop support versus a contractor who does security work in a parking lot. I don't think you really believe these are at all the same thing. They are a very different set of skills.
- sbhere 13y ago
  ^This. >"You feel like you're different," he says. "Even though you're working in the same place, you're still like an outsider. And it's weird because you're actually protecting these people." Because you are different. You aren't an employee; you're a contractor. When I'm a contractor, I don't expect to be treated as an employee by the organization contracting me ... because I'm not.

grecy 13y ago

> I started out doing desktop support for $15/hour. $15/hour * 40 hours a week * 52 weeks = $31k in 2001 dollars = $40,000 in 2012 dollars. That's still more that double Manny's income. > Manny also has lower expenses than I did, since he lives with his mom A person living on the streets has lower expenses than you too, but that doesn't mean it's by choice or a good thing.

ericabiz 13y ago
I didn't work full-time when I started there. College student, remember? I didn't have a full-time gig until I dropped out of college in 2001. BigCo refused to bring on part-time workers, so I quit school and interviewed into the developer role, which was FT and necessitated me dropping out of school. Edited my previous post to reflect correct timeline: 1999: Moved to Valley; got a job doing desktop support at a startup 2000: Startup gets bought by BigCo 2001: BigCo says they won't hire PT employees. I quit school to take $49,500/yr FT dev job at BigCo 2002: Quit dev job and started working on my own stuff (I had paying customers for my company in 2001, but 2002 was when I finally quit and went into consulting and web hosting full time.)
- schrodinger 13y ago
  Ok great, so become a developer to make more money. What if he doesn't want to be a developer? What if he doesn't have the talent to become one? Then he has no right to complain? Is being a developer more noble than being a security guard? You have to realize we're lucky to be talented in a field that pays really well.

geogra4 13y ago

Is the solution for everyone to be a developer? What would that world look like? The world still needs people to do jobs like security, burger flipping, and stocking shelves until everything is automated. It's not even necessarily the pay level that is exploitative. It's the lack of job security and benefits that was once commonplace when a large percentage of the workforce was union.

selmnoo 13y ago

Implicit in your reasoning is the suggestion that a security guard doesn't deserve a dignified living wage. I disagree with that -- I think in a civilized society he should be able to afford his own place, provide for his daughter, give her rides as needed without sacrificing job security, etc. As the other poster mentioned, we /need/ such people... we need people who mow the lawns, people who flip burgers, people who shovel snow. We shouldn't think of them as humans that don't deserve a respectable living wage. re: luck, and making it in the valley Consider the fact that if there was someone quite like Bill Gates, same skillset, same personality, etc. starting out today, how far he'd be able to get. I would assert that it's unlikely that he'd be able to maneuver the SV world today and be able to get more than about 300k. But the real-life Bill Gates has some 60 billion dollar worth... so what's the issue? Clearly luck is a big factor.. you have to be at the right place at the right time, with the connections, with the money, etc. I have known way too many poor people who work unbelievably hard... so I just couldn't disagree more with what you have to say. I would like to respectfully suggest to you that you take some time out and maybe volunteer at a soup kitchen so that you are made more familiar with the real battles a lot of people face today. People like you and I, but without the social support, without the coveted connections and networks, without the job security, without the time to be able to learn a programming language without external pressures (like the pressure to just make money for this month's rent, so your daughter still has a roof on her head). It's very tough for them out there, and getting up is not as easy as you think it is.

jedmeyers 13y ago
"In a civilized society one should be able to afford his own place, provide for his daughter, give her rides as needed without sacrificing job security, etc" - should society provide a place for a person in a location of its choosing?
- sentenza 13y ago
  Should the door in the location of your choosing have a guard? Two questions, same answer.
  - 13y ago

cmiles74 13y ago

Desktop support has and always will pay more than being a security guard in a parking lot. I did desktop support in the nineties as well and made decently more than my roommate who, oddly enough, worked in a parking garage. There is nothing comparable about a contractor who does desktop support versus a contractor who does security work in a parking lot. I don't think you really believe these are at all the same thing. They are a very different set of skills.

sbhere 13y ago
^This. >"You feel like you're different," he says. "Even though you're working in the same place, you're still like an outsider. And it's weird because you're actually protecting these people." Because you are different. You aren't an employee; you're a contractor. When I'm a contractor, I don't expect to be treated as an employee by the organization contracting me ... because I'm not.