10 ms·

What It's Like to Live on Low Pay in a Land of Plenty

63 points by brown9-2 13y ago

alexeisadeski3 13y ago
Is it better to have """low pay""" in San Jose or low pay in Tijuana?
- fennecfoxen 13y ago
  Depends on how low the pay is in Tijuana; the rent down there is much much cheaper too.
- pessimizer 13y ago
  Tijuana. Is there any question?
  - endtime 13y ago
    I'd say yes, there is, if people are choosing the San Jose option.
  - peteretep 13y ago
    The question is "What is the question?" - Would you rather be on $24k/p/a in Tijuana? - Would you rather be in the bottom 10% income bracket in Tijuana?
    - alexeisadeski3 13y ago
      I definitely meant something like the latter!
- WildUtah 13y ago
  According to the Pew Hispanic Center, more people have moved from the USA to Mexico than from Mexico to the USA in each of the past six years. The reverse flow was strong in the 1990's. That's one clue that maybe low pay in Tijuana is getting to be better than San Jose, at least compared to before. I don't know of specific data between Tijuana and San Jose. I do know recent college graduates in SF and Mexico City, though. It's clear that the average wage in relation to the cost of living is higher in Mexico City. My impression is that unskilled and low wage workers are probably a lot better off north of the Río Bravo, though maybe not at SF/SJ prices.
- grecy 13y ago
  It's interesting you choose to compare a developed country to a developing country. You're comparing a team that is supposedly in the A league to a team in the B league, then saying the former is good because it beats the latter. That's nonsensical. For a real comparison, you must compare A teams to A teams. The question should be: Is it better to have "low pay" in San Jose or low pay in Australia/NZ/UK/Japan/Germany/France/Netherlands/etc./etc.
  - WildUtah 13y ago
    Mexico is an OECD country, a member of the 'first world club.' It has a high level of literacy and education and economic output and public infrastructure. Comparing Mexico to the USA is an A-league to A-league comparison. Sure, it's a St. Louis Rams to Seattle Seahawks comparison, but it's not so unfair as you suggest.
altoz 13y ago
It's interesting to note that this guy NEVER gets more than 30 hours. This is most likely to make sure the employee can't be considered full-time. I'm sure Google would rather hire 15 guys at 40-60 hours instead of 40 guys at 20 hours, but the sad reality is that the costs of compliance for a full-time employee are just not worth it.
- angersock 13y ago
  but the sad reality is that the costs of compliance for a full-time employee are just not worth it. My heart bleeds for these poor, hamstrung corporations.
  - menacingly 13y ago
    Does it bleed for the human consequences of the very rational decisions they'll make in that environment?
- dkokelley 13y ago
  Google hasn't hired anybody. The security company was awarded a contract to provide security services, which is fulfilled by employing some people at < 30 hours/week. If there is an issue with the < 30 hours/week loophole, the security company is where it should be addressed. "But Google is benefiting from this exploitation!" you might say. Yes. Google can pay less for security services because the guards ultimately cost less. If the guards worked 40 hours/week, the contract cost would have to increase, and another lower cost security company may have won the contract. The reality is that security services are only worth so much. Not every job (even at full time) can or should be expected to pay a livable wage.
  - lhc- 13y ago
    What do you propose for those people who work these non-livable jobs (including security jobs, janitors, restaurant service workers, and whatever else) to allow them to, well, live? Because you can't just ignore it and say they should get better jobs: someone has to do these things.
nickelite 13y ago
I don't think it's a bad thing that Google treats each employee differently. There's no reason why contractors should have the same benefits as regular employees. Google is a business, not a charity. When Google gives engineers to-go boxes, they don't do it because they like them better than other employees, they do it because it's a competitive market out there, and they want to keep the best. Besides, maybe letting contractors take food home is too expensive for the company. Maybe they couldn't afford free food at all if they give to EVERYONE. If the security guard wants to earn more, he should either start a business on his own or improve his skills to get a better job. People who make this argument tend to make it sound as if it were a discrimination issue, it's not. The reason engineers get paid better isn't because they're white, taller or prettier, it's because they're more prepared and thus add more value to the company.
- mikestew 13y ago
  > Besides, maybe letting contractors take food home is too expensive for the company. Maybe they couldn't afford free food at all if they give to EVERYONE. It's because a company needs to keep a very clear distinction between employees and not-employees. If a to-go box is an employee benefit, and those boxes are given to contractors who are not employees, then there is the risk that a court will decide that the not-employee is indeed an employee. After that the employee says, "where are my retroactive stock options?" For reference, see Microsoft in the 90s.
- d6928230 13y ago
  Actually, at the Googleplex, when you see someone boarding an early shuttle with a stack of to-go boxes for their friends and neighbors it's most commonly a contractor.
- scelerat 13y ago
  > If the security guard wants to earn more, he should either start a business on his own or improve his skills to get a better job. Part of the reason people are engineers is because they've been exposed to good examples and opportunities over a lifetime, not because they are especially or particularly motivated over anyone else. There are all sorts of factors which lead to people having the profession that they do. Work ethic is one among many, and probably not very high on the list. And, being taller and prettier is absolutely a predictor for being better paid. http://www.livescience.com/5552-taller-people-earn-money.html http://www.livescience.com/5552-taller-people-earn-money.htm... http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052970203687504576655331418204842 http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142405297020368750...
joshklein 13y ago
This is explored to a degree in a pop psychology book by Daniel Gilbert called "Stumbling on Happiness". There are certainly better sources, such as the papers Gilbert uses as his primary sources, but the book is an accessible way to learn about the high degree to which our happiness depends on subjective interpretation of our self-comparison to others. There's a theory out there that we evaluate ourselves mostly against people we can reasonably consider our peers (e.g. college classmates or the kid who grew up down the street, not Barack Obama or Steve Jobs) because they are the best proxy for what our lives could have been like had we made different choices with the same starting point (e.g. medical school instead of starting a business). These peers represent our best experimental data given a world of singular outcomes. The double-edged sword of you achieving success is that those hundred or so people you compare yourself to sit high up on an asymptotic curve of outcomes. That is, if your peer group all has advanced degrees and decades of experience, the outcome-difference between the least and most successful will be extreme. "Low success" peer groups sit at the flatter part of the curve, so peers you compare yourself to will "look more like you", thus avoiding the unhappiness of comparative failure when you judge yourself. I'm forgetting whether this particular idea comes from Gilbert's book or another source, like perhaps "Status Anxiety" by Alain de Botton.
- dhugiaskmak 13y ago
  That was your takeaway from the article? Really?
  - joshklein 13y ago
    I was attempting to introduce another, separate subject of intellectual interest to build on the conversation, not trying to provide my takeaway from this article. If my comment came across as a callous attempt to make the topic about the subjective happiness of the privileged rather than the objective disadvantages of those in need, it was not my intention. I'm sorry for my inappropriateness. I did not think my takeaway from this article added to the conversation. Since I've been prompted for it, all I can say about the situation is that I'm appalled by income inequality and an apparent lack of empathy, but I don't know enough about the subjects of this article, or the people examining the article's subjects, to pass judgement. I can only empathize.
gdrulia 13y ago
I don't know, maybe some people who lives there might find some sense in the story, but to me it just doesn't make any sense (I'm east European living in London). Seems just like another try to blame someone else for his own choices how to live a life. In the end, if you want to be equal with other employers, maybe it is time to consider what makes them being more equal and try to reach it yourself instead of just telling the world how unfair the world is. But that just my personal opinion, maybe now it is considered O.K. to act like that.
dkokelley 13y ago
I dislike the implication that external contractors are basically second-class employees that are being exploited by the hiring company. Google has no idea what this person makes. Google hired a security company to perform a service. Event/site security is not Google's core competency. I am well aware of the external contractor dynamic. I work at a small company that provides services to $Fortune_500_company. My access badge is a different color than $Fortune_500_company employees, and I am not allowed to partake in certain employee perks. In fact, $Fortune_500_company is very clear that despite working on their computer, having their email address, having an assigned seat at their campus, and being on their phone system, I am not an employee of theirs. I am OK with this. There are plenty of ways to be screwed in your career. Your contractor/staff status should be considered an unrelated byproduct.
- olefoo 13y ago
  > Google has no idea what this person makes. They can certainly find out. Just like ethically sourced coffee beans are a thing; ethically sourced menial labour can be a thing. It's hip and cool to use ethically sourced labor that isn't toxic to the society you live in. :-)
  - dkokelley 13y ago
    How would you define an ethical wage for menial labor?
    - chadwickthebold 13y ago
      How about a wage that was at least a decent amount above the federal poverty level?
      - sbhere 13y ago
        Why? 1. Federal poverty level isn't a term [1]... >The poverty guidelines are sometimes loosely referred to as the “federal poverty level” (FPL), but that phrase is ambiguous and should be avoided, especially in situations (e.g., legislative or administrative) where precision is important. 2. Government instructing market isn't in the constitution, nor is it in Free Market Capitalism, nor the concept of a Democratic Republic... [1] http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/13poverty.cfm http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/13poverty.cfm
Aloha 13y ago
I work for a major telecom company doing field service. I'm a contractor, I get a fair wage, but not much else. Real employees get, company truck, 20% more pay, 100% paid benefits, company phone and a bunch of intangibles. Like a good example when my manager goes on vacation even though I drive my own vehicle and am paid mileage, none of my mileage requests are paid, right now I'm floating about a month worth of mileage and other expenses, to the tune of 700+ dollars. If I were an employee, I would have a company vehicle, company gas card, company expense card, and it wouldn't be coming out of my pocket.
ericabiz 13y ago
I never know what to make of these articles. I started out with low pay in Silicon Valley, too; I took a job at a startup in 1999 making $15/hour doing IT desktop support. In 2002 (edit: this was 2002, not 2001), when I quit to do consulting and start my own company, things were miserable in the Valley--and my salary as a developer was still only $49,500/year then. I am a college dropout. By traditional standards, then, this guy has more than I do: He has a college degree. Working at a tech company, he had to see that the developers/sysadmins/computer folks made more than he did. I find this juxtaposition interesting because, certainly, a similar article could have been written about me in 1999. $15 an hour was a terrible wage then in the Valley, too. Faced with something similar, I asked several of the developers at our company to teach me development. They were amused at this young 18-year-old girl asking them what a "for loop" was. But they taught me. It took me a while to pick up Linux system administration, bash shell scripting, Perl and PHP (this was in 1999-2000.) When I dropped out of school in 2001, my parents cut me off financially, so I shared tiny apartments, slept on couches, and made ends meet. Now, at age 32, I've bootstrapped a startup to a 7-figure sale and am now the CEO of a funded startup. For most of my life, I've dealt with depression and believing I was not "good enough." In that way, I empathize with Manny. If he's reading this, I would like to say to him: I stand here as proof that a minority with no college degree and no formal education can make it in this world. You live in Silicon Valley. If you really want to pull yourself out of poverty, all doors can be open to you. The first step is believing that you can do it.
- grecy 13y ago
  > things were miserable in the Valley--and my salary as a developer was still only $49,500/year then. You were making $50k - (in 2001?) - that's $65k in 2012 dollars. This guy is making $16,800 ($1,400/mo). That's 4 times less than you were, and you think you're comparable?
  - ericabiz 13y ago
    I started out doing desktop support for $15/hour. (I actually think I started out making less, but I'm not sure how much "less" was--perhaps $12/hour? so I quoted the higher number.) $49,500/year was after I spent over a year learning development, and our startup got bought out by a huge company, and I interviewed into a role at the big company as a developer. I also started out working for a subcontractor, much like Manny in the article. Indeed, I do think it's comparable. Manny also has lower expenses than I did, since he lives with his mom, and in a traditional way of looking at things, he has more "opportunities" open to him since he has a college degree and I was a dropout.
w1ntermute 13y ago
So let me get this straight. This guy got a girl who wasn't (or isn't anymore) his wife pregnant when he was 20 and didn't have a college degree. No shit it's going to be hard to get along. For fuck's sake, you can get FREE condoms from Planned Parenthood or another local health clinic. The sense of entitlement people have is just astonishing to me.
- cmiles74 13y ago
  A sense of entitlement that is not present in the article in any way. In fact, this man worked hard and recently graduate college; he has moved on to a full-time position. He's concerned with his older co-workers and how they will manage to get by. But he says many security guards are much older, and it would be hard for them to find another job. Hard working, moving forward, concerned about his fellow man... I'm not sure where this "sense of entitlement" you mention is coming from.
- MattGrommes 13y ago
  I think you're forgetting the phrase "shit happens". There is no way of knowing what happened to the mom or their relationship. And I don't think it matters either. How would his having a wife have any impact on his situation? If she didn't work, it would be another person to take care of. If she did work, they'd have the same childcare problems mentioned in the article. He seems like he's working hard to take care of his kid but like most people wishes the huge company he works for would help a little more. Where's the entitlement?
  - w1ntermute 13y ago
    > I think you're forgetting the phrase "shit happens". Oh come on. There is no excuse for not using contraception when you're not financially, emotionally, and maritally prepared to have a child. I don't know about this particular man's case, but 95% of unwanted pregnancies are due to failure to use contraception or use it properly [0], which is nothing more or less than sheer irresponsibility on the part of the future parents. > How would his having a wife have any impact on his situation? Seriously? It's much easier to raise a child when both parents are present. It gives you more flexibility in terms of work, even if both parents are working. You save a lot of money because you're not paying individual rents. You save money on food as well. You get tax benefits from the government. If one of you has a job with health insurance that includes dependents, then the other gets it too. The list goes on and on. > He seems like he's working hard to take care of his kid but like most people wishes the huge company he works for would help a little more. Where's the entitlement? He irresponsibly had a child when he wasn't prepared to raise one, and is now expecting others to help him out. That is entitlement. 0: http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/2008/05/09/ImprovingContraceptiveUse.pdf http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/2008/05/09/ImprovingContracep...
blhack 13y ago
/s Does anybody see a link to this guys github profile? I wonder how far along he is on any side projects that he's working on. Surely he must hang out at any of the many coworking spaces in SF on the weekend, right? I don't mean to be crass here, but...there are SO MANY programs available for this guy to learn to code, and then get the employee benefit of taking home free food from his employer (seriously? He's upset they don't let him take free food?) I don't really buy the excuse anymore that people are just being held down by "the system", especially in tech. I've tried with /so many/ people who are in similar "woe is me" situations to teach them to program. I've bought VPSs for them, I've set up curricula for them, I've invited them to hackathons, offered to work on projects with them, etc. etc. etc. And they don't take it. One friend, who I got a job with my employer as a part time support person, needed help building his resume. At the time, I was building a new mail server for us, and I told him I wanted him to help me with it so that he could add some linux sys admin work to his resume. Did he accept it? Nope! He spent his time at home watching Netflix and playing WoW, or age of empires or something. A month later these people are on facebook complaining about how the evil wealthy people are holding them down. -- He's working 30 hours a week, and lives with his mom. C'mon, man, you're being handed the ability to learn to code and build a github profile of a freaking golden platter. Get to it! Or...stop complaining about making $18/hr and only getting to /eat/ the free gourmet buffet, when you wish you could take it home. -- Furthermore, move out of the bay area, man! That's one of the most expensive places to live in the country! Go move to Iowa, or North Dakota. Those places have high qualities of life, good wages, and low costs of living. The Bay is one of the most desirable places in the WORLD to live. I'd love to have sympathy for a guy making $18/hr and living the San Jose, but I just can't bring myself to.
- discreteevent 13y ago
  Fair point but remember its possible that he knows he will never make the grade at programming. He can know that from trying similar things before again and again. Some 'nerds' will never make the grade at football. They don't need to keep trying in order to know that and if you keep pushing it on them they find it insulting and possibly even humiliating.
- schmichael 13y ago
cperry 13y ago
This is a sad consequence of the dynamism of the tech economy, and while no individual is directly to blame, it behooves us to do what we can to help out those around us. Pointing fingers at this guy, blaming him for his own mistakes, while possibly true (who's to say?) isn't worthwhile. The rising inequality in the bay area is spurring the protests in SF aimed at tech workers, and are just the beginning of a turning point which will result in the tech elite becoming demonized at large[1], and by extension (and likely less so) your average tech worker. Becoming involved in the community, expressing sympathy, volunteering at food banks, what have you, are all ways in which we can help avoid that fate. [1] http://www.economist.com/news/21588893-tech-elite-will-join-bankers-and-oilmen-public-demonology-predicts-adrian-wooldridge-coming http://www.economist.com/news/21588893-tech-elite-will-join-...
pjmorris 13y ago
If everybody learns to code, who's going to be the security guard?
- sunnybythesea 13y ago
  Well...just because someone learns to code, does not mean they will be able to do it full-time. I don't think we'll run into that problem anytime soon
  - pjmorris 13y ago
    You're right. But, to elaborate, it seems to me that the answer to 'these jobs don't pay enough' is 'get a better job'. The bottom line seems to be 'do what's hard and in fashion (coding), or you can't eat.' Reminds me of the Glengarry Glen Ross contest: 'First prize is a Cadillac, second prize is a set of steak knives, third prize is you're fired.' Is this really how we want to run a society?

63 points by brown9-2 13y ago

alexeisadeski3 13y ago

Is it better to have """low pay""" in San Jose or low pay in Tijuana?

fennecfoxen 13y ago
Depends on how low the pay is in Tijuana; the rent down there is much much cheaper too.
pessimizer 13y ago
Tijuana. Is there any question?
- endtime 13y ago
  I'd say yes, there is, if people are choosing the San Jose option.
- peteretep 13y ago
  The question is "What is the question?" - Would you rather be on $24k/p/a in Tijuana? - Would you rather be in the bottom 10% income bracket in Tijuana?
  - alexeisadeski3 13y ago
    I definitely meant something like the latter!
WildUtah 13y ago
According to the Pew Hispanic Center, more people have moved from the USA to Mexico than from Mexico to the USA in each of the past six years. The reverse flow was strong in the 1990's. That's one clue that maybe low pay in Tijuana is getting to be better than San Jose, at least compared to before. I don't know of specific data between Tijuana and San Jose. I do know recent college graduates in SF and Mexico City, though. It's clear that the average wage in relation to the cost of living is higher in Mexico City. My impression is that unskilled and low wage workers are probably a lot better off north of the Río Bravo, though maybe not at SF/SJ prices.
grecy 13y ago
It's interesting you choose to compare a developed country to a developing country. You're comparing a team that is supposedly in the A league to a team in the B league, then saying the former is good because it beats the latter. That's nonsensical. For a real comparison, you must compare A teams to A teams. The question should be: Is it better to have "low pay" in San Jose or low pay in Australia/NZ/UK/Japan/Germany/France/Netherlands/etc./etc.
- WildUtah 13y ago
  Mexico is an OECD country, a member of the 'first world club.' It has a high level of literacy and education and economic output and public infrastructure. Comparing Mexico to the USA is an A-league to A-league comparison. Sure, it's a St. Louis Rams to Seattle Seahawks comparison, but it's not so unfair as you suggest.

altoz 13y ago

It's interesting to note that this guy NEVER gets more than 30 hours. This is most likely to make sure the employee can't be considered full-time. I'm sure Google would rather hire 15 guys at 40-60 hours instead of 40 guys at 20 hours, but the sad reality is that the costs of compliance for a full-time employee are just not worth it.

angersock 13y ago
but the sad reality is that the costs of compliance for a full-time employee are just not worth it. My heart bleeds for these poor, hamstrung corporations.
- menacingly 13y ago
  Does it bleed for the human consequences of the very rational decisions they'll make in that environment?
dkokelley 13y ago
Google hasn't hired anybody. The security company was awarded a contract to provide security services, which is fulfilled by employing some people at < 30 hours/week. If there is an issue with the < 30 hours/week loophole, the security company is where it should be addressed. "But Google is benefiting from this exploitation!" you might say. Yes. Google can pay less for security services because the guards ultimately cost less. If the guards worked 40 hours/week, the contract cost would have to increase, and another lower cost security company may have won the contract. The reality is that security services are only worth so much. Not every job (even at full time) can or should be expected to pay a livable wage.
- lhc- 13y ago
  What do you propose for those people who work these non-livable jobs (including security jobs, janitors, restaurant service workers, and whatever else) to allow them to, well, live? Because you can't just ignore it and say they should get better jobs: someone has to do these things.

nickelite 13y ago

I don't think it's a bad thing that Google treats each employee differently. There's no reason why contractors should have the same benefits as regular employees. Google is a business, not a charity. When Google gives engineers to-go boxes, they don't do it because they like them better than other employees, they do it because it's a competitive market out there, and they want to keep the best. Besides, maybe letting contractors take food home is too expensive for the company. Maybe they couldn't afford free food at all if they give to EVERYONE. If the security guard wants to earn more, he should either start a business on his own or improve his skills to get a better job. People who make this argument tend to make it sound as if it were a discrimination issue, it's not. The reason engineers get paid better isn't because they're white, taller or prettier, it's because they're more prepared and thus add more value to the company.

mikestew 13y ago
> Besides, maybe letting contractors take food home is too expensive for the company. Maybe they couldn't afford free food at all if they give to EVERYONE. It's because a company needs to keep a very clear distinction between employees and not-employees. If a to-go box is an employee benefit, and those boxes are given to contractors who are not employees, then there is the risk that a court will decide that the not-employee is indeed an employee. After that the employee says, "where are my retroactive stock options?" For reference, see Microsoft in the 90s.
d6928230 13y ago
Actually, at the Googleplex, when you see someone boarding an early shuttle with a stack of to-go boxes for their friends and neighbors it's most commonly a contractor.
scelerat 13y ago
> If the security guard wants to earn more, he should either start a business on his own or improve his skills to get a better job. Part of the reason people are engineers is because they've been exposed to good examples and opportunities over a lifetime, not because they are especially or particularly motivated over anyone else. There are all sorts of factors which lead to people having the profession that they do. Work ethic is one among many, and probably not very high on the list. And, being taller and prettier is absolutely a predictor for being better paid. http://www.livescience.com/5552-taller-people-earn-money.html http://www.livescience.com/5552-taller-people-earn-money.htm... http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052970203687504576655331418204842 http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142405297020368750...

joshklein 13y ago

This is explored to a degree in a pop psychology book by Daniel Gilbert called "Stumbling on Happiness". There are certainly better sources, such as the papers Gilbert uses as his primary sources, but the book is an accessible way to learn about the high degree to which our happiness depends on subjective interpretation of our self-comparison to others. There's a theory out there that we evaluate ourselves mostly against people we can reasonably consider our peers (e.g. college classmates or the kid who grew up down the street, not Barack Obama or Steve Jobs) because they are the best proxy for what our lives could have been like had we made different choices with the same starting point (e.g. medical school instead of starting a business). These peers represent our best experimental data given a world of singular outcomes. The double-edged sword of you achieving success is that those hundred or so people you compare yourself to sit high up on an asymptotic curve of outcomes. That is, if your peer group all has advanced degrees and decades of experience, the outcome-difference between the least and most successful will be extreme. "Low success" peer groups sit at the flatter part of the curve, so peers you compare yourself to will "look more like you", thus avoiding the unhappiness of comparative failure when you judge yourself. I'm forgetting whether this particular idea comes from Gilbert's book or another source, like perhaps "Status Anxiety" by Alain de Botton.

dhugiaskmak 13y ago
That was your takeaway from the article? Really?
- joshklein 13y ago
  I was attempting to introduce another, separate subject of intellectual interest to build on the conversation, not trying to provide my takeaway from this article. If my comment came across as a callous attempt to make the topic about the subjective happiness of the privileged rather than the objective disadvantages of those in need, it was not my intention. I'm sorry for my inappropriateness. I did not think my takeaway from this article added to the conversation. Since I've been prompted for it, all I can say about the situation is that I'm appalled by income inequality and an apparent lack of empathy, but I don't know enough about the subjects of this article, or the people examining the article's subjects, to pass judgement. I can only empathize.

gdrulia 13y ago

I don't know, maybe some people who lives there might find some sense in the story, but to me it just doesn't make any sense (I'm east European living in London). Seems just like another try to blame someone else for his own choices how to live a life. In the end, if you want to be equal with other employers, maybe it is time to consider what makes them being more equal and try to reach it yourself instead of just telling the world how unfair the world is. But that just my personal opinion, maybe now it is considered O.K. to act like that.

dkokelley 13y ago

I dislike the implication that external contractors are basically second-class employees that are being exploited by the hiring company. Google has no idea what this person makes. Google hired a security company to perform a service. Event/site security is not Google's core competency. I am well aware of the external contractor dynamic. I work at a small company that provides services to $Fortune_500_company. My access badge is a different color than $Fortune_500_company employees, and I am not allowed to partake in certain employee perks. In fact, $Fortune_500_company is very clear that despite working on their computer, having their email address, having an assigned seat at their campus, and being on their phone system, I am not an employee of theirs. I am OK with this. There are plenty of ways to be screwed in your career. Your contractor/staff status should be considered an unrelated byproduct.

olefoo 13y ago
> Google has no idea what this person makes. They can certainly find out. Just like ethically sourced coffee beans are a thing; ethically sourced menial labour can be a thing. It's hip and cool to use ethically sourced labor that isn't toxic to the society you live in. :-)
- dkokelley 13y ago
  How would you define an ethical wage for menial labor?
  - chadwickthebold 13y ago
    How about a wage that was at least a decent amount above the federal poverty level?
    - sbhere 13y ago
      Why? 1. Federal poverty level isn't a term [1]... >The poverty guidelines are sometimes loosely referred to as the “federal poverty level” (FPL), but that phrase is ambiguous and should be avoided, especially in situations (e.g., legislative or administrative) where precision is important. 2. Government instructing market isn't in the constitution, nor is it in Free Market Capitalism, nor the concept of a Democratic Republic... [1] http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/13poverty.cfm http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/13poverty.cfm

Aloha 13y ago

I work for a major telecom company doing field service. I'm a contractor, I get a fair wage, but not much else. Real employees get, company truck, 20% more pay, 100% paid benefits, company phone and a bunch of intangibles. Like a good example when my manager goes on vacation even though I drive my own vehicle and am paid mileage, none of my mileage requests are paid, right now I'm floating about a month worth of mileage and other expenses, to the tune of 700+ dollars. If I were an employee, I would have a company vehicle, company gas card, company expense card, and it wouldn't be coming out of my pocket.

ericabiz 13y ago

I never know what to make of these articles. I started out with low pay in Silicon Valley, too; I took a job at a startup in 1999 making $15/hour doing IT desktop support. In 2002 (edit: this was 2002, not 2001), when I quit to do consulting and start my own company, things were miserable in the Valley--and my salary as a developer was still only $49,500/year then. I am a college dropout. By traditional standards, then, this guy has more than I do: He has a college degree. Working at a tech company, he had to see that the developers/sysadmins/computer folks made more than he did. I find this juxtaposition interesting because, certainly, a similar article could have been written about me in 1999. $15 an hour was a terrible wage then in the Valley, too. Faced with something similar, I asked several of the developers at our company to teach me development. They were amused at this young 18-year-old girl asking them what a "for loop" was. But they taught me. It took me a while to pick up Linux system administration, bash shell scripting, Perl and PHP (this was in 1999-2000.) When I dropped out of school in 2001, my parents cut me off financially, so I shared tiny apartments, slept on couches, and made ends meet. Now, at age 32, I've bootstrapped a startup to a 7-figure sale and am now the CEO of a funded startup. For most of my life, I've dealt with depression and believing I was not "good enough." In that way, I empathize with Manny. If he's reading this, I would like to say to him: I stand here as proof that a minority with no college degree and no formal education can make it in this world. You live in Silicon Valley. If you really want to pull yourself out of poverty, all doors can be open to you. The first step is believing that you can do it.

grecy 13y ago
> things were miserable in the Valley--and my salary as a developer was still only $49,500/year then. You were making $50k - (in 2001?) - that's $65k in 2012 dollars. This guy is making $16,800 ($1,400/mo). That's 4 times less than you were, and you think you're comparable?
- ericabiz 13y ago
  I started out doing desktop support for $15/hour. (I actually think I started out making less, but I'm not sure how much "less" was--perhaps $12/hour? so I quoted the higher number.) $49,500/year was after I spent over a year learning development, and our startup got bought out by a huge company, and I interviewed into a role at the big company as a developer. I also started out working for a subcontractor, much like Manny in the article. Indeed, I do think it's comparable. Manny also has lower expenses than I did, since he lives with his mom, and in a traditional way of looking at things, he has more "opportunities" open to him since he has a college degree and I was a dropout.

w1ntermute 13y ago

So let me get this straight. This guy got a girl who wasn't (or isn't anymore) his wife pregnant when he was 20 and didn't have a college degree. No shit it's going to be hard to get along. For fuck's sake, you can get FREE condoms from Planned Parenthood or another local health clinic. The sense of entitlement people have is just astonishing to me.

cmiles74 13y ago
A sense of entitlement that is not present in the article in any way. In fact, this man worked hard and recently graduate college; he has moved on to a full-time position. He's concerned with his older co-workers and how they will manage to get by. But he says many security guards are much older, and it would be hard for them to find another job. Hard working, moving forward, concerned about his fellow man... I'm not sure where this "sense of entitlement" you mention is coming from.
MattGrommes 13y ago
I think you're forgetting the phrase "shit happens". There is no way of knowing what happened to the mom or their relationship. And I don't think it matters either. How would his having a wife have any impact on his situation? If she didn't work, it would be another person to take care of. If she did work, they'd have the same childcare problems mentioned in the article. He seems like he's working hard to take care of his kid but like most people wishes the huge company he works for would help a little more. Where's the entitlement?
- w1ntermute 13y ago
  > I think you're forgetting the phrase "shit happens". Oh come on. There is no excuse for not using contraception when you're not financially, emotionally, and maritally prepared to have a child. I don't know about this particular man's case, but 95% of unwanted pregnancies are due to failure to use contraception or use it properly [0], which is nothing more or less than sheer irresponsibility on the part of the future parents. > How would his having a wife have any impact on his situation? Seriously? It's much easier to raise a child when both parents are present. It gives you more flexibility in terms of work, even if both parents are working. You save a lot of money because you're not paying individual rents. You save money on food as well. You get tax benefits from the government. If one of you has a job with health insurance that includes dependents, then the other gets it too. The list goes on and on. > He seems like he's working hard to take care of his kid but like most people wishes the huge company he works for would help a little more. Where's the entitlement? He irresponsibly had a child when he wasn't prepared to raise one, and is now expecting others to help him out. That is entitlement. 0: http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/2008/05/09/ImprovingContraceptiveUse.pdf http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/2008/05/09/ImprovingContracep...

blhack 13y ago

/s Does anybody see a link to this guys github profile? I wonder how far along he is on any side projects that he's working on. Surely he must hang out at any of the many coworking spaces in SF on the weekend, right? I don't mean to be crass here, but...there are SO MANY programs available for this guy to learn to code, and then get the employee benefit of taking home free food from his employer (seriously? He's upset they don't let him take free food?) I don't really buy the excuse anymore that people are just being held down by "the system", especially in tech. I've tried with /so many/ people who are in similar "woe is me" situations to teach them to program. I've bought VPSs for them, I've set up curricula for them, I've invited them to hackathons, offered to work on projects with them, etc. etc. etc. And they don't take it. One friend, who I got a job with my employer as a part time support person, needed help building his resume. At the time, I was building a new mail server for us, and I told him I wanted him to help me with it so that he could add some linux sys admin work to his resume. Did he accept it? Nope! He spent his time at home watching Netflix and playing WoW, or age of empires or something. A month later these people are on facebook complaining about how the evil wealthy people are holding them down. -- He's working 30 hours a week, and lives with his mom. C'mon, man, you're being handed the ability to learn to code and build a github profile of a freaking golden platter. Get to it! Or...stop complaining about making $18/hr and only getting to /eat/ the free gourmet buffet, when you wish you could take it home. -- Furthermore, move out of the bay area, man! That's one of the most expensive places to live in the country! Go move to Iowa, or North Dakota. Those places have high qualities of life, good wages, and low costs of living. The Bay is one of the most desirable places in the WORLD to live. I'd love to have sympathy for a guy making $18/hr and living the San Jose, but I just can't bring myself to.

discreteevent 13y ago
Fair point but remember its possible that he knows he will never make the grade at programming. He can know that from trying similar things before again and again. Some 'nerds' will never make the grade at football. They don't need to keep trying in order to know that and if you keep pushing it on them they find it insulting and possibly even humiliating.
schmichael 13y ago

cperry 13y ago

This is a sad consequence of the dynamism of the tech economy, and while no individual is directly to blame, it behooves us to do what we can to help out those around us. Pointing fingers at this guy, blaming him for his own mistakes, while possibly true (who's to say?) isn't worthwhile. The rising inequality in the bay area is spurring the protests in SF aimed at tech workers, and are just the beginning of a turning point which will result in the tech elite becoming demonized at large[1], and by extension (and likely less so) your average tech worker. Becoming involved in the community, expressing sympathy, volunteering at food banks, what have you, are all ways in which we can help avoid that fate. [1] http://www.economist.com/news/21588893-tech-elite-will-join-bankers-and-oilmen-public-demonology-predicts-adrian-wooldridge-coming http://www.economist.com/news/21588893-tech-elite-will-join-...

pjmorris 13y ago

If everybody learns to code, who's going to be the security guard?

sunnybythesea 13y ago
Well...just because someone learns to code, does not mean they will be able to do it full-time. I don't think we'll run into that problem anytime soon
- pjmorris 13y ago
  You're right. But, to elaborate, it seems to me that the answer to 'these jobs don't pay enough' is 'get a better job'. The bottom line seems to be 'do what's hard and in fashion (coding), or you can't eat.' Reminds me of the Glengarry Glen Ross contest: 'First prize is a Cadillac, second prize is a set of steak knives, third prize is you're fired.' Is this really how we want to run a society?