5 ms·

http://www.scribd.com/doc/192157170/Eldo-Kim-Complaint http://www.scribd.com/doc/192157170/Eldo-Kim-Complaint It sounds like they determined from the email pro

by Torgo 13y ago

http://www.scribd.com/doc/192157170/Eldo-Kim-Complaint http://www.scribd.com/doc/192157170/Eldo-Kim-Complaint It sounds like they determined from the email provider that the message came from a Tor exit node, then from there they looked for who had made a connection on Harvard campus to known Tor relays. He had, so they interviewed him and he confessed to everything. I don't see any strong indication of a weakness in Tor from this, but it's a bit concerning that you could be interviewed for having used Tor at the same time as something like this. I run a relay full-time, I don't know if this is better or worse for me.

jpwright 13y ago
This basically adds no new information about Tor, except what we already knew -- that you should really have a private bridge, and that Tor traffic is readily discernible from normal traffic (hence, avoid using it on networks where authorization is linked to your identity!). The affidavit doesn't say how they linked the GuerillaMail address to Tor, presumably they used a subpoena. He could have easily avoided detection (not to say that would have been a good thing) by using something like SkypeMorph (https://crysp.uwaterloo.ca/software/CodeTalkerTunnel.html https://crysp.uwaterloo.ca/software/CodeTalkerTunnel.html)
- moloch 13y ago
  Or just not confessed; him using TOR around the same time is not going to be enough to convict him.
  - whitehat2k9 13y ago
    This. It sounds like he folded as soon as he was interviewed by law enforcement. Don't underestimate the power of the $5 wrench. http://xkcd.com/538/ http://xkcd.com/538/
    - iamjustin 13y ago
      Yeah, and they didn't even need the wrench.
    - grugq 13y ago
      Seriously, enough with the XKCD 538 fallacy. That is not how interrogations work. It just isn't. Violent torture is not how you get people to provide information. Actual interrogations are far more cunning and complex, involving psychological tricks and play against weaknesses in the human mind. Perpetuating this "they'll hit you until you confess" bullshit stops people from learning actually useful information about how to resist interrogations.
      - Crito 13y ago
        The comic is not literally suggesting that interrogations imply violence any more than it is literally suggesting that any violence must be done specifically with a wrench. Pedantism and comics do not go well together. The format is not meant for conveying exactingly precise information. Interpretation is required.
        grugq 13y ago
        The comic does actually suggest that, and the comment I replied to specifically suggested that. This sort of interrogation typically starts with "we know you did it, so why don't you make things easy for yourself...", not "break his finger so he knows we're serious". The XKCD 538 fallacy is the delusional belief that torture and threats of violence are how people are coerced into confession during an interrogation. That is not the case. Perpetuating that fallacy actually helps interrogators, since the fear of "confess or else you'll get the wrench" is implanted in people's minds. Since that is not how things actually work, it is counter productive. It does not help anyone except the authorities. This is why I say stop perpetuating the fallacy. Seriously.
        Crito 13y ago
        The person who posted that comic was not literally suggesting that a $5 wrench was used. The FBI asked the guy some questions, and he folded. The XKCD comic was referenced because he rightly understood the comic to be making a general statement about the worth of cryptography when you consider the human element. Seriously, you are not telling anybody here anything they did not already know.
- quantumpotato_ 13y ago
  Interesting. Isn't Skype owned by M$ though.. ?
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- beerme 13y ago
  The GuerrillaMail to Tor link is explained by the last line in GuerrillaMail's TOS (https://www.guerrillamail.com/tos https://www.guerrillamail.com/tos), which says that they inject your IP address into the email's headers. So there was no subpoena required. The use of GM was a no-op in this case.
toki5 13y ago
It's not damning at all to have used Tor around that time, but it's not a huge leap of logic, either.
ericcumbee 13y ago
Running TOR at the same time the message was sent. Plus The police do not have to have probable cause to speak to you. Of course what you say back is entirely up to you.
- Crito 13y ago
  In addition, I imagine a list of students who had finals in those buildings around that time also entered into the equation. Talking to the guy using tor at the time, who had finals at the time, is a no brainer.
  - alphonse23 13y ago
    he wouldn't have gotten nabbed in a court of law -- all you need is a motive.
    - Crito 13y ago
      I doubt that the "finals list/tor usage" combination would have been enough to convict him, but I suspect it would have been enough to get a search warrant for his computer. I don't know if he used the Tor Browser Bundle, and if that is even all that clean from a forensic standpoint, but I certainly wouldn't trust it to conceal what I did. Maaaybe he'd have a chance if he used a LiveCD that they could not find evidence of him ever having. That is a very strong "maybe".
      - alphonse23 13y ago
        Here's what the young lad should have done, had he had really thought about this: Use a LiveCD to boot with Tor on it, and also tether his cell phone to his computer, so he wouldn't have to go through the campuses wifi. Then the only way they'd have know he used a Tor would be if they checked every student's phone usage -- which would take too long -- and therefore they'd never have found him. Or if they did, they couldn't prove he did it because he used a LiveCD and tor had no trace on his machine.
throwaway_yy2Di 13y ago
Serious question: why do people talk so highly of a security protocol which even Harvard students fail hard at actually using in real life? If people who are the global 99.999'th percentile of tech literacy lose their lives and careers relying on this stuff, in what way is it a meaningful solution to third-world victims of repressive governments? I'm assuming at this point that thousands of Syrian, Egyptian, Iranian, Chinese, etc. dissidents are dead from misplaced trust in Tor and other crypto magic, and no one's the wiser.
- toki5 13y ago
  The "failure" you mention here is his confession. If all they had to go on was what's in the article -- that "the person who used Guerilla Mail used Tor to access it" and "[Kim] used Tor around the same time the e-mails were sent" -- that's not enough to charge him with a crime. It's enough to go and talk to him about it, but if he had wanted to, he could have protected his identity (but possibly prolonged the investigation, depending on what other resources the agent had) by simply denying that he had anything to do with it.
  - throwaway_yy2Di 13y ago
    Obviously the point at which a hostile government thinks you're a top suspect and interrogates you is the weakest link in the security chain. This guy had it comparatively easy: his interrogators weren't torturing him to death.
    - Crito 13y ago
      To answer your initial question, people talk highly of Tor because if used properly it can move the weakest link from the technological into the interrogation room. Had he not used tor and had just signed into his email normally, they really wouldn't have needed a confession. Nobody but a fool thinks that Tor (or any other piece of technology) is a silver bullet. It is just a tool, and like any tool, has intended uses and numerous shortcomings when you use it without knowing what it is for. Trying to use Tor to protect you against interrogators who are convinced of your guilt and willing to torture you to death is like trying to toast your bread with a hammer. Completely nonsensical, though that does not mean a hammer is a bizarrely useless contraption invented and touted by fools. Asking what the point of Tor is if it cannot protect you from that is like asking what the point of body armor is if stepping on a landmine still blows your leg off.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
alphonse23 13y ago
so why didn't he go to starbucks or something to do this, I would have anticipated all this. I guess he was running out of time, and under the pressure he made a careless split second decision.
- tedunangst 13y ago
  As the very first bullet point on the tor project homepage says, "Tor prevents people from learning your location or browsing habits." Why bother going to Starbucks when using tor means you're safe?
anigbrowl 13y ago
I don't think Tor is suspicious as such, it's just that it's sufficiently unusual as to be worth following up for statistical reasons. By consumer standards it's pretty obscure; the same would be true of PasteBin or many other sites where someone might conceivably make a hoax claim.

by Torgo 13y ago

jpwright 13y ago

This basically adds no new information about Tor, except what we already knew -- that you should really have a private bridge, and that Tor traffic is readily discernible from normal traffic (hence, avoid using it on networks where authorization is linked to your identity!). The affidavit doesn't say how they linked the GuerillaMail address to Tor, presumably they used a subpoena. He could have easily avoided detection (not to say that would have been a good thing) by using something like SkypeMorph (https://crysp.uwaterloo.ca/software/CodeTalkerTunnel.html https://crysp.uwaterloo.ca/software/CodeTalkerTunnel.html)

moloch 13y ago
Or just not confessed; him using TOR around the same time is not going to be enough to convict him.
- whitehat2k9 13y ago
  This. It sounds like he folded as soon as he was interviewed by law enforcement. Don't underestimate the power of the $5 wrench. http://xkcd.com/538/ http://xkcd.com/538/
  - iamjustin 13y ago
    Yeah, and they didn't even need the wrench.
  - grugq 13y ago
    Seriously, enough with the XKCD 538 fallacy. That is not how interrogations work. It just isn't. Violent torture is not how you get people to provide information. Actual interrogations are far more cunning and complex, involving psychological tricks and play against weaknesses in the human mind. Perpetuating this "they'll hit you until you confess" bullshit stops people from learning actually useful information about how to resist interrogations.
    - Crito 13y ago
      The comic is not literally suggesting that interrogations imply violence any more than it is literally suggesting that any violence must be done specifically with a wrench. Pedantism and comics do not go well together. The format is not meant for conveying exactingly precise information. Interpretation is required.
      - grugq 13y ago
        The comic does actually suggest that, and the comment I replied to specifically suggested that. This sort of interrogation typically starts with "we know you did it, so why don't you make things easy for yourself...", not "break his finger so he knows we're serious". The XKCD 538 fallacy is the delusional belief that torture and threats of violence are how people are coerced into confession during an interrogation. That is not the case. Perpetuating that fallacy actually helps interrogators, since the fear of "confess or else you'll get the wrench" is implanted in people's minds. Since that is not how things actually work, it is counter productive. It does not help anyone except the authorities. This is why I say stop perpetuating the fallacy. Seriously.
        Crito 13y ago
        The person who posted that comic was not literally suggesting that a $5 wrench was used. The FBI asked the guy some questions, and he folded. The XKCD comic was referenced because he rightly understood the comic to be making a general statement about the worth of cryptography when you consider the human element. Seriously, you are not telling anybody here anything they did not already know.
quantumpotato_ 13y ago
Interesting. Isn't Skype owned by M$ though.. ?
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
beerme 13y ago
The GuerrillaMail to Tor link is explained by the last line in GuerrillaMail's TOS (https://www.guerrillamail.com/tos https://www.guerrillamail.com/tos), which says that they inject your IP address into the email's headers. So there was no subpoena required. The use of GM was a no-op in this case.

toki5 13y ago

It's not damning at all to have used Tor around that time, but it's not a huge leap of logic, either.

ericcumbee 13y ago

Running TOR at the same time the message was sent. Plus The police do not have to have probable cause to speak to you. Of course what you say back is entirely up to you.

Crito 13y ago
In addition, I imagine a list of students who had finals in those buildings around that time also entered into the equation. Talking to the guy using tor at the time, who had finals at the time, is a no brainer.
- alphonse23 13y ago
  he wouldn't have gotten nabbed in a court of law -- all you need is a motive.
  - Crito 13y ago
    I doubt that the "finals list/tor usage" combination would have been enough to convict him, but I suspect it would have been enough to get a search warrant for his computer. I don't know if he used the Tor Browser Bundle, and if that is even all that clean from a forensic standpoint, but I certainly wouldn't trust it to conceal what I did. Maaaybe he'd have a chance if he used a LiveCD that they could not find evidence of him ever having. That is a very strong "maybe".
    - alphonse23 13y ago
      Here's what the young lad should have done, had he had really thought about this: Use a LiveCD to boot with Tor on it, and also tether his cell phone to his computer, so he wouldn't have to go through the campuses wifi. Then the only way they'd have know he used a Tor would be if they checked every student's phone usage -- which would take too long -- and therefore they'd never have found him. Or if they did, they couldn't prove he did it because he used a LiveCD and tor had no trace on his machine.

throwaway_yy2Di 13y ago

Serious question: why do people talk so highly of a security protocol which even Harvard students fail hard at actually using in real life? If people who are the global 99.999'th percentile of tech literacy lose their lives and careers relying on this stuff, in what way is it a meaningful solution to third-world victims of repressive governments? I'm assuming at this point that thousands of Syrian, Egyptian, Iranian, Chinese, etc. dissidents are dead from misplaced trust in Tor and other crypto magic, and no one's the wiser.

toki5 13y ago
The "failure" you mention here is his confession. If all they had to go on was what's in the article -- that "the person who used Guerilla Mail used Tor to access it" and "[Kim] used Tor around the same time the e-mails were sent" -- that's not enough to charge him with a crime. It's enough to go and talk to him about it, but if he had wanted to, he could have protected his identity (but possibly prolonged the investigation, depending on what other resources the agent had) by simply denying that he had anything to do with it.
- throwaway_yy2Di 13y ago
  Obviously the point at which a hostile government thinks you're a top suspect and interrogates you is the weakest link in the security chain. This guy had it comparatively easy: his interrogators weren't torturing him to death.
  - Crito 13y ago
    To answer your initial question, people talk highly of Tor because if used properly it can move the weakest link from the technological into the interrogation room. Had he not used tor and had just signed into his email normally, they really wouldn't have needed a confession. Nobody but a fool thinks that Tor (or any other piece of technology) is a silver bullet. It is just a tool, and like any tool, has intended uses and numerous shortcomings when you use it without knowing what it is for. Trying to use Tor to protect you against interrogators who are convinced of your guilt and willing to torture you to death is like trying to toast your bread with a hammer. Completely nonsensical, though that does not mean a hammer is a bizarrely useless contraption invented and touted by fools. Asking what the point of Tor is if it cannot protect you from that is like asking what the point of body armor is if stepping on a landmine still blows your leg off.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

alphonse23 13y ago

so why didn't he go to starbucks or something to do this, I would have anticipated all this. I guess he was running out of time, and under the pressure he made a careless split second decision.

tedunangst 13y ago
As the very first bullet point on the tor project homepage says, "Tor prevents people from learning your location or browsing habits." Why bother going to Starbucks when using tor means you're safe?

anigbrowl 13y ago

I don't think Tor is suspicious as such, it's just that it's sufficiently unusual as to be worth following up for statistical reasons. By consumer standards it's pretty obscure; the same would be true of PasteBin or many other sites where someone might conceivably make a hoax claim.