6 ms·

One of the key points in their push for new legislation is establishing a universal framework for handling cross-jurisdictional legal conflicts -- one in partic

by ihsw 13y ago

One of the key points in their push for new legislation is establishing a universal framework for handling cross-jurisdictional legal conflicts -- one in particular is Google being indicted in the UK on privacy violations and them subsequently requesting to move the avenue of debate to an American court. These kinds of legal uncertainties are troublesome for large multinational corporations, especially with regards to patents and whatnot. They're piggy-backing on the surveillance issue to push their idea of universal jurisdiction, a concept unheard of until WWII during the Nuremburg trials where German war criminals were charged with violating American laws even though they weren't Americans, the victims weren't Americans, and the crimes hadn't occurred on American soil. The very basis of state sovereignty is being challenged. "Because it hurts their business model" simplifies things a bit too much.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
magicalist 13y ago
This is completely made up legal theory. Please don't push it as anything approaching truth. Not only is Google not being "indicted" (it's a civil suit), it has nothing to do with NSA reform (it's about the Safari third-party cookies workaround), and jurisdictional challenges, even wrong ones, are as old as the hills.
- w_t_payne 13y ago
  Matters of jurisdiction in international law are a pretty hot topic at the moment -- have been for a few years, and will probably continue to be for the next decade or two.
  - 001sky 13y ago
    Matters of jurisdiction in international law They are as old as questions of sovereignty, that's why it s a problem and not only likely to be remedied soon.
    - w_t_payne 13y ago
      Quite.
- ihsw 13y ago
  You're right, it's more of a conspiracy theory than anything else, but I can't get past the idea that tech corporations are suddenly interested in right's of users to privacy from their government.
  - arrrg 13y ago
    Suddenly? Of course suddenly! The relevations were sudden, the consequences are sudden. On a macro level tech companies are not interested in the government invading the privacy of the people who are using their services because at the very least it doesn’t benefit them in any way. It might even be an inconvenience to deal with in some cases. The problem is, however, that at any moment large tech companies deal with many issues and problems and they prioritise some over others, on a macro level probably mostly depending on how much money they stand to make. Now, the government invading the privacy of their users certainly doesn’t make them any money – but most of the time it probably also doesn’t lose them any money, or only very little. However, now everyone is talking about it. More people are starting to care about privacy and the companies can expect to lose at least some customers. Many medium-sized businesses in Germany have already been banning any and all US online services for company use, but the revelations might increase their number even more, for example. So now companies are becoming more active. On the macro level because they stand to lose money. But I’m pretty sure that the picture will be very different when looking at the micro level. I’m pretty sure that when you look at the people leading the charge for these companies you will find many who feel passionately about this and always have been. It’s just that now there is both enough political capital inside the company to actually start lobbying and the revelations have also put pressure on the government, so moving the status quo got (even if only ever so slightly) easier. Many people you will hear speak for these companies will actually feel passionately about this. It’s just that now is also the opportunity for them to do something.
    - CaptainZapp 13y ago
      Many medium-sized businesses in Germany have already been banning any and all US online services for company use, but the revelations might increase their number even more, for example. And I don't think it's limited to online services. Cisco routers? Intel chips? Microsoft software? Suddenly just about every American technology product is about as suspicious (or even more so) than anything out of China. I believe this whole sordid affair and especially the revelations about the subversion of protocols and possible back doors has tainted the US tech industry, possibly beyond repair.
a3voices 13y ago
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations; This is from the original U.S. Constitution, so we have always given ourselves the power to enforce laws outside of our jurisdiction.
- joering2 13y ago
  ...on "Piracies and Felonies", you forgot to say. I somehow doubt you could call Pope or Merkel a "pirate" or "felon", but that's what its boiling down to. By spying on anyone US does not trust anyone because there is possibility others do the same thing... Its like a looped liar syndrome. Someone who constantly lies does not believe other people because if he constantly lies then in his world it means everyone else does the same as well. Sick sick situation.
lxwang 13y ago
And what of it? The internet and cheap worldwide shipping/travel have made it easy to work around a lot of laws whose jurisdiction is limited by geography. A system where you can use gmail, google+, youtube, etc and be subject to Google "law" or use outlook.com, bing, etc and be subject to Microsoft "law" seems like the natural place to go from here. Google is even investing in walking robots and self-driving cars to use for enforcement already :D
- n09n 13y ago
  Yep. When peoples' actions effortlessly cross national boundaries. laws that don't cross national boundaries quickly become irrelevant. First e-feudalism, then who knows what?
  - ENGNR 13y ago
    We're definitely entering e-feudalism. We need an e-revolution into e-democracy, whatever that looks like. Probably select acceptance into online communities, while increasingly irrelevant nations worry about increasingly irrelevant tax revenue and your increasingly irrelevant physical location.

by ihsw 13y ago

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

magicalist 13y ago

This is completely made up legal theory. Please don't push it as anything approaching truth. Not only is Google not being "indicted" (it's a civil suit), it has nothing to do with NSA reform (it's about the Safari third-party cookies workaround), and jurisdictional challenges, even wrong ones, are as old as the hills.

w_t_payne 13y ago
Matters of jurisdiction in international law are a pretty hot topic at the moment -- have been for a few years, and will probably continue to be for the next decade or two.
- 001sky 13y ago
  Matters of jurisdiction in international law They are as old as questions of sovereignty, that's why it s a problem and not only likely to be remedied soon.
  - w_t_payne 13y ago
    Quite.
ihsw 13y ago
You're right, it's more of a conspiracy theory than anything else, but I can't get past the idea that tech corporations are suddenly interested in right's of users to privacy from their government.
- arrrg 13y ago
  Suddenly? Of course suddenly! The relevations were sudden, the consequences are sudden. On a macro level tech companies are not interested in the government invading the privacy of the people who are using their services because at the very least it doesn’t benefit them in any way. It might even be an inconvenience to deal with in some cases. The problem is, however, that at any moment large tech companies deal with many issues and problems and they prioritise some over others, on a macro level probably mostly depending on how much money they stand to make. Now, the government invading the privacy of their users certainly doesn’t make them any money – but most of the time it probably also doesn’t lose them any money, or only very little. However, now everyone is talking about it. More people are starting to care about privacy and the companies can expect to lose at least some customers. Many medium-sized businesses in Germany have already been banning any and all US online services for company use, but the revelations might increase their number even more, for example. So now companies are becoming more active. On the macro level because they stand to lose money. But I’m pretty sure that the picture will be very different when looking at the micro level. I’m pretty sure that when you look at the people leading the charge for these companies you will find many who feel passionately about this and always have been. It’s just that now there is both enough political capital inside the company to actually start lobbying and the revelations have also put pressure on the government, so moving the status quo got (even if only ever so slightly) easier. Many people you will hear speak for these companies will actually feel passionately about this. It’s just that now is also the opportunity for them to do something.
  - CaptainZapp 13y ago
    Many medium-sized businesses in Germany have already been banning any and all US online services for company use, but the revelations might increase their number even more, for example. And I don't think it's limited to online services. Cisco routers? Intel chips? Microsoft software? Suddenly just about every American technology product is about as suspicious (or even more so) than anything out of China. I believe this whole sordid affair and especially the revelations about the subversion of protocols and possible back doors has tainted the US tech industry, possibly beyond repair.

a3voices 13y ago

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations; This is from the original U.S. Constitution, so we have always given ourselves the power to enforce laws outside of our jurisdiction.

joering2 13y ago
...on "Piracies and Felonies", you forgot to say. I somehow doubt you could call Pope or Merkel a "pirate" or "felon", but that's what its boiling down to. By spying on anyone US does not trust anyone because there is possibility others do the same thing... Its like a looped liar syndrome. Someone who constantly lies does not believe other people because if he constantly lies then in his world it means everyone else does the same as well. Sick sick situation.

lxwang 13y ago

And what of it? The internet and cheap worldwide shipping/travel have made it easy to work around a lot of laws whose jurisdiction is limited by geography. A system where you can use gmail, google+, youtube, etc and be subject to Google "law" or use outlook.com, bing, etc and be subject to Microsoft "law" seems like the natural place to go from here. Google is even investing in walking robots and self-driving cars to use for enforcement already :D

n09n 13y ago
Yep. When peoples' actions effortlessly cross national boundaries. laws that don't cross national boundaries quickly become irrelevant. First e-feudalism, then who knows what?
- ENGNR 13y ago
  We're definitely entering e-feudalism. We need an e-revolution into e-democracy, whatever that looks like. Probably select acceptance into online communities, while increasingly irrelevant nations worry about increasingly irrelevant tax revenue and your increasingly irrelevant physical location.