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"In the modern world, virtually all of our communication involves other companies, and so if those companies can voluntarily act as effectively agents of the go

"In the modern world, virtually all of our communication involves other companies, and so if those companies can voluntarily act as effectively agents of the government in providing the government data, then the Fourth Amendment is practically void." I think the point is that the tech companies aren't sharing their users' data with the government voluntarily -- the government is using a combination of questionable, secret court rulings and strong-arm tactics to force them to share. If left to themselves, the companies in question (at least the ones that have spoken out most loudly) wouldn't voluntarily give up as much information as they have been. And not just for idealism's sake -- their own bottom line is likely affected. EDIT: removed unclear statement meant as a joke.

yuhong 13y ago
(now, if the government were willing to buy user information at market prices, Google and Facebook at least seem totally cool with that based on their ever-expanding directed marketing businesses :P). Huh?
- jonhohle 13y ago
  Google and Facebook sell your detailed browsing history and social interactions to advertising companies. For a similar price, they'd likely sell this information to any government as well.
  - jcrites 13y ago
    Yes, it was my impression that some companies participate voluntarily (other than by court order), because the government pays for access or otherwise awards them contracts for access. One discussion: http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/07/10/what-government-pays-to-snoop-on-you/2504819/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/07/10/what... It's easy to understand why the typical company would choose to participate if they simply need to provide a data stream to gain a new revenue stream. It's also easy to understand why a factory will dump pollutants into a river instead of disposing them "properly". It's our job as a society to create incentives and remove options that provide this sort of "tragedy of the digital privacy commons" (not a perfect analogy). By paying for access (at presumably a rate much greater than cost), the government makes firms who refuse to provide access less competitive in the market than firms who do.
  - iaskwhy 13y ago
    Is there a citation for this? I'm aware if I use Google (I don't) then Google will have my search history, my location and some other details (like access to my emails if I use Gmail). I understand Google uses this data when selling ads via AdSense and other Google ads networks. But I never read Google sold this data, as is, to other companies.
  - vdaniuk 13y ago
    No, they do not. They provide access to the user preferences, likes and interests but they never ever sell user data to third parties without user authorization. Cite your sources if you have any proof of your claim.
  - syntern 13y ago
    This theme keeps repeating, and there is no evidence to support it. Just for the start, how can I buy your or any other person's browsing history?
  - n09n 13y ago
    You don't get ahead in the milk business by selling your cows.
  - jonhohle 13y ago
    It's too late to add an edit comment, but I'll agree with all of the replies - this was a gross overgeneralization of how these companies structure their advertising programs. They _use_ your detailed browsing history and social interactions sell other services to advertising companies. Their internal properties (at least Google's) have direct access to this data to aid in their own advertising programs (not 3P, but maybe not what you expect). I didn't explicitly say they give that data to 3rd-parties, but I'll clarify that they do not give the unanonymized data to third parties (analytics from campaigns provide a fair amount of anonymized data). To the best of my knowledge, there is no method of getting discrete, individual specific data directly from these companies unless you have a subpoena.
- kcorbitt 13y ago
  Sorry, that was a tongue-in-cheek reference to the fact that companies like Facebook and Google that get most of their revenue from advertising tend to sell some data about their users as part of their advertising platforms. Of course, the data exposed through those interfaces isn't nearly as explicit or personal as the sort of direct access the NSA wants.
  - vdaniuk 13y ago
    NO, they do not "tend" to sell data. Their internal systems deliver advertising to selected audiences but personal data doesn't leave Google or Facebook servers.

yuhong 13y ago

(now, if the government were willing to buy user information at market prices, Google and Facebook at least seem totally cool with that based on their ever-expanding directed marketing businesses :P). Huh?

jonhohle 13y ago
Google and Facebook sell your detailed browsing history and social interactions to advertising companies. For a similar price, they'd likely sell this information to any government as well.
- jcrites 13y ago
  Yes, it was my impression that some companies participate voluntarily (other than by court order), because the government pays for access or otherwise awards them contracts for access. One discussion: http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/07/10/what-government-pays-to-snoop-on-you/2504819/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/07/10/what... It's easy to understand why the typical company would choose to participate if they simply need to provide a data stream to gain a new revenue stream. It's also easy to understand why a factory will dump pollutants into a river instead of disposing them "properly". It's our job as a society to create incentives and remove options that provide this sort of "tragedy of the digital privacy commons" (not a perfect analogy). By paying for access (at presumably a rate much greater than cost), the government makes firms who refuse to provide access less competitive in the market than firms who do.
- iaskwhy 13y ago
  Is there a citation for this? I'm aware if I use Google (I don't) then Google will have my search history, my location and some other details (like access to my emails if I use Gmail). I understand Google uses this data when selling ads via AdSense and other Google ads networks. But I never read Google sold this data, as is, to other companies.
- vdaniuk 13y ago
  No, they do not. They provide access to the user preferences, likes and interests but they never ever sell user data to third parties without user authorization. Cite your sources if you have any proof of your claim.
- syntern 13y ago
  This theme keeps repeating, and there is no evidence to support it. Just for the start, how can I buy your or any other person's browsing history?
- n09n 13y ago
  You don't get ahead in the milk business by selling your cows.
- jonhohle 13y ago
  It's too late to add an edit comment, but I'll agree with all of the replies - this was a gross overgeneralization of how these companies structure their advertising programs. They _use_ your detailed browsing history and social interactions sell other services to advertising companies. Their internal properties (at least Google's) have direct access to this data to aid in their own advertising programs (not 3P, but maybe not what you expect). I didn't explicitly say they give that data to 3rd-parties, but I'll clarify that they do not give the unanonymized data to third parties (analytics from campaigns provide a fair amount of anonymized data). To the best of my knowledge, there is no method of getting discrete, individual specific data directly from these companies unless you have a subpoena.
kcorbitt 13y ago
Sorry, that was a tongue-in-cheek reference to the fact that companies like Facebook and Google that get most of their revenue from advertising tend to sell some data about their users as part of their advertising platforms. Of course, the data exposed through those interfaces isn't nearly as explicit or personal as the sort of direct access the NSA wants.
- vdaniuk 13y ago
  NO, they do not "tend" to sell data. Their internal systems deliver advertising to selected audiences but personal data doesn't leave Google or Facebook servers.