11 ms·

For European HNers (or travelers) I plea for you to use the night trains, keep them alive. One example: Between Amsterdam & Bern - Skybus flies for €86 (1.5 ho

by furyg3 13y ago

For European HNers (or travelers) I plea for you to use the night trains, keep them alive. One example: Between Amsterdam & Bern - Skybus flies for €86 (1.5 hours) and the CityNightLine train is €80 for a bed (11.5 hours). Other routes are comparable, you can pay a bit more for your own (non-shared) compartment. Economically it seems crazy to take these night trains, and I never even bothered until a recent business trip from Amsterdam to Munich. It was great for many of the reasons mentioned in the article and other comments here: leave and arrive in the city center, no security, no gate closing time, no baggage restrictions/pick-up/lost luggage, have a beer or dinner on board at a real bar or table, use your laptop/phone/ereader whenever you like, lie down, take a shower, whatever. Basically it's like flying the night before with a free (albeit basic) hotel stay thrown in. I'm worried that too many people dismiss the night trains too easily (like I did), and that these will be relegated to the history books. In my opinion that would really be a tragedy. Plane travel has turned into a elementary school bus trip. The train is still a grown-up alternative.

csmuk 13y ago
My one experience of a sleeper (London-Scotland) was horrid. Farts, sick, snoring, alcohol noises and smells all night. I hope things are better on the mainland. If not, I'd rather take a plane. I flew back from Glasgow to Stansted for a small fortune to avoid the experience.
- tpholland 13y ago
  I take the London-Edinburgh sleeper fairly regularly, and have only ever had good experiences. That said, although in theory standard-class passengers have to share, this has only ever happened to me once. I can imagine that if you drew the short straw it could be terrible. The other big down-side is that you can't have a proper wash on the train; luckily there are some pretty good public swimming baths between Waverley station and our client's offices.
- leothekim 13y ago
  Somewhat off-topic - I found EasyJet to be a cheap alternative to trains going from London to Edinburgh. RyanAir is another one, though they have a reputation of claiming to fly you to one city, only to land in a different one because its airport fees are slightly cheaper [1]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryanair#Alleged_misleading_advertising http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryanair#Alleged_misleading_adve...
  - RyanMcGreal 13y ago
    Ha! We flew from Paris to Dublin a couple of years ago, but the "Paris" airport was actually in Beauvais, about 80 km north of Paris. The bus ride from Paris to the airport both took longer and cost more than the flight to Dublin.
    - dkersten 13y ago
      When I flew with them to spain a few years back, their Barcelona airport was in Girona (105 km away, according to Google maps).
  - raverbashing 13y ago
    "though they have a reputation of claiming to fly you to one city, only to land in a different one because its airport fees are slightly cheaper" Well, even though I dislike Ryanair, their information on that aspect is as good as it gets. They advertise "Paris Beauvais" airport which, ok, is not known by many people but I'm not sure how they could do it better.
- tomblomfield 13y ago
  I've taken this route a couple of times - the Caledonian sleeper. I had this romantic vision of linen tablecloths and breakfast in bed. Instead, I got instant coffee and a single croissant served in a vacuum-packed plastic wrapper. One time, the train even ended up in a Glasgow by mistake.
  - csmuk 13y ago
    Croissant! Lucky soul. They had supply problems when I went on it. We had Fosters and microwaved burger for breakfast. Not a great start to the day. It became apparent at about 11AM that the burger was poison and tried (unsuccessfully I will add) to escape both ends. Sorry if that was too much information.
    - waqf 13y ago
      Oh, we'd have killed for Fosters. All we got was half a cup of brake fluid, and if we said anything the engine driver would stop the train "until everyone was quiet". Then we took a wrong turn at Crewe and ended up in Archangelsk twelve days later with beriberi.
      - AmVess 13y ago
        Was is 12? Seemed like 13. At least the brake fluid was fresh. I had a window seat, but all I could see was despair. Turns out it was my reflection. The small lady in the paper hat was nice, but she ran out of cookies before she got to me.
        klipt 13y ago
        Cookies? Ridiculous! They fed us burning hot coal, then forced us to pull the train while the driver sat up front and whipped us. And we had to pay train driver to let us pull!
      - deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
    - 13y ago
aclimatt 13y ago
I'm not so sure. I took the fated Trenhotel Joan Miró that the author talks about. It was a little over 100€ and covered the distance in twelve hours, like the author said. After getting off that train, economically I could not fathom why anybody would ever subject themselves to that experience again. The 100€ got me a seat in the back of the train in a semi-reclined seat (the least expensive ticket I could buy). I booked it about four weeks in advance. For 150€, I could get an actual bed to sleep in (four to a compartment), and the price/service level went up from there. If the train had free food or even just free water, Wi-Fi, showers, and such like you describe (at least at that price level), it'd potentially be a different experience. But Trenhotel's stock is about as old as it gets, and what you get for the base price of 100€ makes for quite an unfortunate twelve hours. I just went to Vueling, and I can fly from Barcelona to Paris for 40€ in two hours. Even with security, time to/from the airport and such, I'm still saving time and money. Copious amounts of baggage is the only thing left out, but I could pay 100€ to check piles and piles of bags, and now I spend slightly more than the Trenhotel and arrive five times faster. High speed trains make sense for semi-long distances. Paris to Amsterdam is a great example. Three hours on modern equipment is very doable, and a plane ride can't beat that in time (fixed costs of security and required early arrival are too high). Comfort is superior, and the price will come down. The author makes the point that the cost is 2x but the travel time is only slightly faster. These routes were just inaugurated, and the stock is fresh out of the factory. Give it a few years, and they will come down. I'll bet you the old "vintage" routes that the author pines over were pretty darn expensive when they too were first inaugurated. For the <4 hour trips, high speed rail is excellent, and I believe those prices will fall. But anything longer than that, forget the night trains. They're only semi-useful for tourists and backpackers, and I'm shocked they still operate. I'll fly, thanks.
- secabeen 13y ago
  Interesting. If trains only make sense for trips of <4 hours, how does that impact the California High-Speed Rail project?
  - moheeb 13y ago
    Higher speeds!
gaius 13y ago
The Stena Line ferry to Holland is also superb, it can be very cheap, or you can get a "captain class" cabin that was actually bigger than my flat...
baddox 13y ago
> Basically it's like flying the night before with a free (albeit basic) hotel stay thrown in. But that's not a good thing for many use cases, like tight business travel or vacations where I'd rather not spend a vacation day traveling if unnecessary.
- lmm 13y ago
  If you're leaving at (say) 8pm on Friday evening, an overnight train arriving Saturday morning is much more convenient than a plane landing at midnight; likewise for getting back in time for work on Monday morning. What's the use case where it doesn't fit?
- dagw 13y ago
  I know someone who liked to take the night train for business travel the few times it was possible. Flying he had to get up at 4 am to catch a 6 am flight for a 9 am meeting. With the train he hopped on the evening before, enjoyed dinner and a drink or two in the restaurant, got a full nights sleep, woke up at 7, took a shower, ate breakfast and arrived at the meeting rested. Admittedly it was very rarely that meeting locations and train schedules lined up so it wasn't like he did it often.
ChuckMcM 13y ago
I always take the night trains when I travel in Europe, but it is infrequent enough that I am not going to be able to save them. This makes me sad as well.
raverbashing 13y ago
> no baggage restrictions/pick-up/lost luggage, No Stories are plenty of people that get their baggage stolen while they are sleeping Your comment is loaded with romantic idealism (which I won't say I don't have as well) but is sorely lacking on the practicality of it Yes, I like getting to the city center. In Wien this cost me around 4€. In Paris, 17€ (the more expensive bus) or 10€ for the cheapest bus (you can take the RER as well), yes, if you take Ryanair it's probably more to get there. But staying in a train all night doesn't make me enthusiastic anymore. I'd rather cope with the hassles of air travel but it will still get me somewhere faster.

by furyg3 13y ago

csmuk 13y ago

My one experience of a sleeper (London-Scotland) was horrid. Farts, sick, snoring, alcohol noises and smells all night. I hope things are better on the mainland. If not, I'd rather take a plane. I flew back from Glasgow to Stansted for a small fortune to avoid the experience.

tpholland 13y ago
I take the London-Edinburgh sleeper fairly regularly, and have only ever had good experiences. That said, although in theory standard-class passengers have to share, this has only ever happened to me once. I can imagine that if you drew the short straw it could be terrible. The other big down-side is that you can't have a proper wash on the train; luckily there are some pretty good public swimming baths between Waverley station and our client's offices.
leothekim 13y ago
Somewhat off-topic - I found EasyJet to be a cheap alternative to trains going from London to Edinburgh. RyanAir is another one, though they have a reputation of claiming to fly you to one city, only to land in a different one because its airport fees are slightly cheaper [1]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryanair#Alleged_misleading_advertising http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryanair#Alleged_misleading_adve...
- RyanMcGreal 13y ago
  Ha! We flew from Paris to Dublin a couple of years ago, but the "Paris" airport was actually in Beauvais, about 80 km north of Paris. The bus ride from Paris to the airport both took longer and cost more than the flight to Dublin.
  - dkersten 13y ago
    When I flew with them to spain a few years back, their Barcelona airport was in Girona (105 km away, according to Google maps).
- raverbashing 13y ago
  "though they have a reputation of claiming to fly you to one city, only to land in a different one because its airport fees are slightly cheaper" Well, even though I dislike Ryanair, their information on that aspect is as good as it gets. They advertise "Paris Beauvais" airport which, ok, is not known by many people but I'm not sure how they could do it better.
tomblomfield 13y ago
I've taken this route a couple of times - the Caledonian sleeper. I had this romantic vision of linen tablecloths and breakfast in bed. Instead, I got instant coffee and a single croissant served in a vacuum-packed plastic wrapper. One time, the train even ended up in a Glasgow by mistake.
- csmuk 13y ago
  Croissant! Lucky soul. They had supply problems when I went on it. We had Fosters and microwaved burger for breakfast. Not a great start to the day. It became apparent at about 11AM that the burger was poison and tried (unsuccessfully I will add) to escape both ends. Sorry if that was too much information.
  - waqf 13y ago
    Oh, we'd have killed for Fosters. All we got was half a cup of brake fluid, and if we said anything the engine driver would stop the train "until everyone was quiet". Then we took a wrong turn at Crewe and ended up in Archangelsk twelve days later with beriberi.
    - AmVess 13y ago
      Was is 12? Seemed like 13. At least the brake fluid was fresh. I had a window seat, but all I could see was despair. Turns out it was my reflection. The small lady in the paper hat was nice, but she ran out of cookies before she got to me.
      - klipt 13y ago
        Cookies? Ridiculous! They fed us burning hot coal, then forced us to pull the train while the driver sat up front and whipped us. And we had to pay train driver to let us pull!
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
  - 13y ago

aclimatt 13y ago

I'm not so sure. I took the fated Trenhotel Joan Miró that the author talks about. It was a little over 100€ and covered the distance in twelve hours, like the author said. After getting off that train, economically I could not fathom why anybody would ever subject themselves to that experience again. The 100€ got me a seat in the back of the train in a semi-reclined seat (the least expensive ticket I could buy). I booked it about four weeks in advance. For 150€, I could get an actual bed to sleep in (four to a compartment), and the price/service level went up from there. If the train had free food or even just free water, Wi-Fi, showers, and such like you describe (at least at that price level), it'd potentially be a different experience. But Trenhotel's stock is about as old as it gets, and what you get for the base price of 100€ makes for quite an unfortunate twelve hours. I just went to Vueling, and I can fly from Barcelona to Paris for 40€ in two hours. Even with security, time to/from the airport and such, I'm still saving time and money. Copious amounts of baggage is the only thing left out, but I could pay 100€ to check piles and piles of bags, and now I spend slightly more than the Trenhotel and arrive five times faster. High speed trains make sense for semi-long distances. Paris to Amsterdam is a great example. Three hours on modern equipment is very doable, and a plane ride can't beat that in time (fixed costs of security and required early arrival are too high). Comfort is superior, and the price will come down. The author makes the point that the cost is 2x but the travel time is only slightly faster. These routes were just inaugurated, and the stock is fresh out of the factory. Give it a few years, and they will come down. I'll bet you the old "vintage" routes that the author pines over were pretty darn expensive when they too were first inaugurated. For the <4 hour trips, high speed rail is excellent, and I believe those prices will fall. But anything longer than that, forget the night trains. They're only semi-useful for tourists and backpackers, and I'm shocked they still operate. I'll fly, thanks.

secabeen 13y ago
Interesting. If trains only make sense for trips of <4 hours, how does that impact the California High-Speed Rail project?
- moheeb 13y ago
  Higher speeds!

gaius 13y ago

The Stena Line ferry to Holland is also superb, it can be very cheap, or you can get a "captain class" cabin that was actually bigger than my flat...

baddox 13y ago

> Basically it's like flying the night before with a free (albeit basic) hotel stay thrown in. But that's not a good thing for many use cases, like tight business travel or vacations where I'd rather not spend a vacation day traveling if unnecessary.

lmm 13y ago
If you're leaving at (say) 8pm on Friday evening, an overnight train arriving Saturday morning is much more convenient than a plane landing at midnight; likewise for getting back in time for work on Monday morning. What's the use case where it doesn't fit?
dagw 13y ago
I know someone who liked to take the night train for business travel the few times it was possible. Flying he had to get up at 4 am to catch a 6 am flight for a 9 am meeting. With the train he hopped on the evening before, enjoyed dinner and a drink or two in the restaurant, got a full nights sleep, woke up at 7, took a shower, ate breakfast and arrived at the meeting rested. Admittedly it was very rarely that meeting locations and train schedules lined up so it wasn't like he did it often.

ChuckMcM 13y ago

I always take the night trains when I travel in Europe, but it is infrequent enough that I am not going to be able to save them. This makes me sad as well.

raverbashing 13y ago

> no baggage restrictions/pick-up/lost luggage, No Stories are plenty of people that get their baggage stolen while they are sleeping Your comment is loaded with romantic idealism (which I won't say I don't have as well) but is sorely lacking on the practicality of it Yes, I like getting to the city center. In Wien this cost me around 4€. In Paris, 17€ (the more expensive bus) or 10€ for the cheapest bus (you can take the RER as well), yes, if you take Ryanair it's probably more to get there. But staying in a train all night doesn't make me enthusiastic anymore. I'd rather cope with the hassles of air travel but it will still get me somewhere faster.