3 ms·

In the northeast US, too. If I wanted to go from Manhattan to Boston this afternoon: $200 by plane, $75-100 by train, $15 by Boltbus. All take about 4 hours. Pl

by chaz 13y ago

In the northeast US, too. If I wanted to go from Manhattan to Boston this afternoon: $200 by plane, $75-100 by train, $15 by Boltbus. All take about 4 hours. Plane is going to cost more because it's a bit of a haul to get to JFK or Newark airports -- about $8 + 1 hour by public transportation, or about $50 + 30 min by taxi. Planning out a week or two, though, airfare can be as little as $75. Train stays the same price.

rayiner 13y ago
At least part of the issue is that Boltbus is traveling on heavily subsidized highways. On the Northeast Regional, ticket fares more than cover costs. In comparison, only about 50% of highway construction and maintenance is paid for by highway and gas taxes and trucking fees, with the rest coming from general taxes. New York in particular is a state which funds highway maintenance heavily out of general tax revenue. Still, I think air travel is the clear loser in the comparison. The public transit route to LGA or JFK is a bus trip through not very pleasant parts of Harlem and Queens, and is just a huge PITA with luggage. Strolling into Penn Station is a breeze.
- twoodfin 13y ago
  Roads are certainly "subsidized" in the U.S., but given how much economic and civic activity they enable relative to the general revenue required, I don't think it's fair to call that subsidy "heavy". I doubt it's outrageous when considered per passenger-mile relative to, say, the non-fee general revenue that goes to the TSA, FAA, airport improvement, etc. The federal highways that represented the majority of that Boltbus' trip could easily be funded by gas taxes and other essentially user fees if you raised them marginally and removed the requirement that something like 1/6 of that funding be redirected to subsidize public transit. With a few regional exceptions, Amtrak absolutely could not exist without general revenue: As you raised fares, passengers would vanish. And I'm skeptical that Northeast Regional fares really do cover any more than the operating expenses. Are they sufficient to cover capital expenses as well? State and local road funding is trickier, because it's inefficient to build toll booths along small roads and local gas taxes can be evaded in border areas by driving to another locality. But almost everyone uses local roads, so paying for them out of local taxes isn't a terrible solution. Regardless, if we could switch to GPS-based taxation without too much of a row, I am quite sure that state and local roads would continue to exist and grow without any "subsidy".
- protomyth 13y ago
  "At least part of the issue is that Boltbus is traveling on heavily subsidized highways. On the Northeast Regional, ticket fares more than cover costs." You might want the check on that since Amtrack is heavily subsidized by taxpayers[1] and rail is the original subsidized transportation. Here's a thought experiment. What if you took all the rail in the northeast[2] and made it private roads for automated buses? Would it be better or worse? I imagine you can crank the speed on an automated bus on a closed road. 1) In 2010, Amtrak earned about $2.51 billion on $3.74 billion in expenses. 2) yes, big impact on cargo hauling - the thing American rail is optimized for
  - cfmcdonald 13y ago
    Amtrak loses money in most of the country, but the Northeast Corridor is profitable. http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/03/01/amtrak_profits_in_the_northeast_where_people_use_it_they_make_money.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/03/01/amtrak_profit...
    - protomyth 13y ago
      The Brookings Institute reports relies on accounting information that is suspect[1] and it looks like the route is a money loser when capital costs are taken into account[2]. The Inspector General's report is one of those nasty reports that show some manipulation. 1) http://www.oig.dot.gov/sites/dot/files/Amtrak's%20New%20Cost%20Accounting%20System%20Report%5E3-27-13.pdf http://www.oig.dot.gov/sites/dot/files/Amtrak's%20New%20Cost... 2) http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2011/05/13/is-the-northeast-corridor-really-profitable.aspx http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2011/05/13/i...
- potatolicious 13y ago
  Purely a personal pet peeve, but BoltBus also gets to be cheaper because they don't have to build or rent space in bus terminals. Instead they stop and pick up on busy, narrow streets in Manhattan and their passengers frequently block the sidewalk to such an extent that it forces pedestrians into traffic. Ditto all the other coach lines. At least the sketchy Chinatown bus lines have the decency to pick up on less busy streets in the Lower East Side, the BoltBuses have no reservations about gunking up the works during rush hour in Midtown.
  - chaz 13y ago
    BoltBus to Boston was moved last month from its Penn Station location (at the request of NYC DOT & a community board) to 33rd St between 11th and 12th -- a dead block pretty far away from anything. They sent out an email two weeks ago asking for cust feedback on an "opportunity" to move to 1st Ave between 38th and 39th. They wanted feedback within a couple of days to tell the city, so the city obviously has some control/input, but I don't know the extent.
- patrickg_zill 13y ago
  People keep saying this. But, it is BS. When you ask them for a link, they trot out something from 30 years ago from the DOT, or a recent study, with no real numbers, from PIRG, a decidedly left-leaning and biased source. Want REAL numbers? Look up the CAFR financial report for any toll road or turnpike. Dig into it, find out the actual maintenance costs (not the cost of everything else like hiring people to take toll money), divide by the miles of toll road covered. Then, you will have an actual handle on what maintenance of roads costs. Hint: it is a lot less than you think and far less than the total amount of road fees, vehicle taxes like the sales tax, registration costs, fuel taxes, etc. that the govt takes in each year. Don't forget, every 18 wheeler you see has a 12% Federal excise tax on its first sale (and such trucks are usually over $100K, thus at least $12K taxes); and each year, every commercial truck has to pay a sliding scale under Form 2290 to even register their vehicle for plates, from $100 to $550.

by chaz 13y ago

rayiner 13y ago

At least part of the issue is that Boltbus is traveling on heavily subsidized highways. On the Northeast Regional, ticket fares more than cover costs. In comparison, only about 50% of highway construction and maintenance is paid for by highway and gas taxes and trucking fees, with the rest coming from general taxes. New York in particular is a state which funds highway maintenance heavily out of general tax revenue. Still, I think air travel is the clear loser in the comparison. The public transit route to LGA or JFK is a bus trip through not very pleasant parts of Harlem and Queens, and is just a huge PITA with luggage. Strolling into Penn Station is a breeze.

twoodfin 13y ago
Roads are certainly "subsidized" in the U.S., but given how much economic and civic activity they enable relative to the general revenue required, I don't think it's fair to call that subsidy "heavy". I doubt it's outrageous when considered per passenger-mile relative to, say, the non-fee general revenue that goes to the TSA, FAA, airport improvement, etc. The federal highways that represented the majority of that Boltbus' trip could easily be funded by gas taxes and other essentially user fees if you raised them marginally and removed the requirement that something like 1/6 of that funding be redirected to subsidize public transit. With a few regional exceptions, Amtrak absolutely could not exist without general revenue: As you raised fares, passengers would vanish. And I'm skeptical that Northeast Regional fares really do cover any more than the operating expenses. Are they sufficient to cover capital expenses as well? State and local road funding is trickier, because it's inefficient to build toll booths along small roads and local gas taxes can be evaded in border areas by driving to another locality. But almost everyone uses local roads, so paying for them out of local taxes isn't a terrible solution. Regardless, if we could switch to GPS-based taxation without too much of a row, I am quite sure that state and local roads would continue to exist and grow without any "subsidy".
protomyth 13y ago
"At least part of the issue is that Boltbus is traveling on heavily subsidized highways. On the Northeast Regional, ticket fares more than cover costs." You might want the check on that since Amtrack is heavily subsidized by taxpayers[1] and rail is the original subsidized transportation. Here's a thought experiment. What if you took all the rail in the northeast[2] and made it private roads for automated buses? Would it be better or worse? I imagine you can crank the speed on an automated bus on a closed road. 1) In 2010, Amtrak earned about $2.51 billion on $3.74 billion in expenses. 2) yes, big impact on cargo hauling - the thing American rail is optimized for
- cfmcdonald 13y ago
  Amtrak loses money in most of the country, but the Northeast Corridor is profitable. http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/03/01/amtrak_profits_in_the_northeast_where_people_use_it_they_make_money.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/03/01/amtrak_profit...
  - protomyth 13y ago
    The Brookings Institute reports relies on accounting information that is suspect[1] and it looks like the route is a money loser when capital costs are taken into account[2]. The Inspector General's report is one of those nasty reports that show some manipulation. 1) http://www.oig.dot.gov/sites/dot/files/Amtrak's%20New%20Cost%20Accounting%20System%20Report%5E3-27-13.pdf http://www.oig.dot.gov/sites/dot/files/Amtrak's%20New%20Cost... 2) http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2011/05/13/is-the-northeast-corridor-really-profitable.aspx http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2011/05/13/i...
potatolicious 13y ago
Purely a personal pet peeve, but BoltBus also gets to be cheaper because they don't have to build or rent space in bus terminals. Instead they stop and pick up on busy, narrow streets in Manhattan and their passengers frequently block the sidewalk to such an extent that it forces pedestrians into traffic. Ditto all the other coach lines. At least the sketchy Chinatown bus lines have the decency to pick up on less busy streets in the Lower East Side, the BoltBuses have no reservations about gunking up the works during rush hour in Midtown.
- chaz 13y ago
  BoltBus to Boston was moved last month from its Penn Station location (at the request of NYC DOT & a community board) to 33rd St between 11th and 12th -- a dead block pretty far away from anything. They sent out an email two weeks ago asking for cust feedback on an "opportunity" to move to 1st Ave between 38th and 39th. They wanted feedback within a couple of days to tell the city, so the city obviously has some control/input, but I don't know the extent.
patrickg_zill 13y ago
People keep saying this. But, it is BS. When you ask them for a link, they trot out something from 30 years ago from the DOT, or a recent study, with no real numbers, from PIRG, a decidedly left-leaning and biased source. Want REAL numbers? Look up the CAFR financial report for any toll road or turnpike. Dig into it, find out the actual maintenance costs (not the cost of everything else like hiring people to take toll money), divide by the miles of toll road covered. Then, you will have an actual handle on what maintenance of roads costs. Hint: it is a lot less than you think and far less than the total amount of road fees, vehicle taxes like the sales tax, registration costs, fuel taxes, etc. that the govt takes in each year. Don't forget, every 18 wheeler you see has a 12% Federal excise tax on its first sale (and such trucks are usually over $100K, thus at least $12K taxes); and each year, every commercial truck has to pay a sliding scale under Form 2290 to even register their vehicle for plates, from $100 to $550.