4 ms·

That's not a fact of human nature. That is nurture/culture at its finest. Do you think young chimpansee boys and girls play with different 'toys'? Capitalism d

That's not a fact of human nature. That is nurture/culture at its finest. Do you think young chimpansee boys and girls play with different 'toys'? Capitalism didn't create this culture, but it certainly isn't going to make it go away. Blaming managers for capitalist comsiderations is like blaming the wind for uprooting a tree.

nerfhammer 13y ago
> Do you think young chimpansee boys and girls play with different 'toys'? Yes, they do, and their preferences are largely similar to those of human children. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982210014491 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982210... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18452921 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18452921 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1090513802001071 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1090513802...
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- JanezStupar 13y ago
  One more proof of impact of the human male misogyny. The patriarchy is so deeply rooted, that even the chimpanzees are affected! We should start a fund that will fight for equal opportunity for female chimpanzees! /s
  - lewispollard 13y ago
    The difference between us and chimps is that we have a choice in the matter.
    - nerfhammer 13y ago
      If there really are inborn sex differences in play behavior, isn't this like saying we have a really have a "choice" in handedness? An idea that didn't work out too well for left-handed people when this was believed by society
      - lewispollard 13y ago
        As a southpaw I feel you, but correcting left-handedness has no real social impact on anybody, gender equality issues have much further reaching positive social implications.
- Confusion 13y ago
  Thanks for those links. I was convinced otherwise.
- polymatter 13y ago
  Thank you very much for providing actual evidence as opposed to speculation. However, there is room for interpretation here, and I am not sure the evidence is quite as conclusive as you seem to suggest. Its not strange at all for published articles on the bleeding edge of science to be shown later to be incorrect. And there are some things that hit me when looking at the abstracts. For example, in that first study observing behavior from six females and two males seems enough to suggest that there is a "greater female interest in infant care, with stick-carrying being a form of play-mothering". Unfortunately, I don't think that is quite enough conclusive evidence to make any conclusions about chimpanzee behavior beyond those particular individuals, let alone that of the entire family of great apes. In that third study, I seriously question the gendered objects. A toy pot might be a girl toy in human society, but I question whether the same is true in vervet monkey society. Do vervet monkeys hold a sterotype for female vervet monkeys cooking with a pot in the kitchen, before they invent cooking, pots or kitchens? And I don't understand how it is that a plush toy is female, but a stuffed dog is ungendered. I'd be interested in reading the full papers if anyone can pass on links to the full papers. I'm sure I remember coming across these same studies previously. I suspect that negative results are not actually published and there is a lot of existing pressure to confirm existing cultural beliefs in order to actually get published. Look at what happened to the Harvard President Lawrence Summers when he questioned whether women have less aptitude for science. There is a lot of emotion behind this (and I won't deny being very biased myself). Though I have to admit that the evidence does point towards a gendered difference in toy preference, I just felt the need to question its conclusiveness.
  - thelamest 13y ago
    1. Yes, there are differences between sexes/genders. 2. No, they are not of stereotypical delineation/clarity/scale. If anything, we now know more than ever that while people vary, there is no reason to generalize against any social group ability in any matter. 3a. First study: female apes are more interested in tool-like sticks than male apes. 3b. Second study: female apes are equally interested in "feminine" and "masculine" toys. 3c. Third study: a doll attracts 20% of female vs 8% of male ape attention. .pdfs of mentioned papers are easily findable on Google Scholar.
RivieraKid 13y ago
I don't know whether what you're saying is true but is it backed by evidence or just an assumption?

nerfhammer 13y ago

> Do you think young chimpansee boys and girls play with different 'toys'? Yes, they do, and their preferences are largely similar to those of human children. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982210014491 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982210... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18452921 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18452921 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1090513802001071 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1090513802...

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
JanezStupar 13y ago
One more proof of impact of the human male misogyny. The patriarchy is so deeply rooted, that even the chimpanzees are affected! We should start a fund that will fight for equal opportunity for female chimpanzees! /s
- lewispollard 13y ago
  The difference between us and chimps is that we have a choice in the matter.
  - nerfhammer 13y ago
    If there really are inborn sex differences in play behavior, isn't this like saying we have a really have a "choice" in handedness? An idea that didn't work out too well for left-handed people when this was believed by society
    - lewispollard 13y ago
      As a southpaw I feel you, but correcting left-handedness has no real social impact on anybody, gender equality issues have much further reaching positive social implications.
Confusion 13y ago
Thanks for those links. I was convinced otherwise.
polymatter 13y ago
Thank you very much for providing actual evidence as opposed to speculation. However, there is room for interpretation here, and I am not sure the evidence is quite as conclusive as you seem to suggest. Its not strange at all for published articles on the bleeding edge of science to be shown later to be incorrect. And there are some things that hit me when looking at the abstracts. For example, in that first study observing behavior from six females and two males seems enough to suggest that there is a "greater female interest in infant care, with stick-carrying being a form of play-mothering". Unfortunately, I don't think that is quite enough conclusive evidence to make any conclusions about chimpanzee behavior beyond those particular individuals, let alone that of the entire family of great apes. In that third study, I seriously question the gendered objects. A toy pot might be a girl toy in human society, but I question whether the same is true in vervet monkey society. Do vervet monkeys hold a sterotype for female vervet monkeys cooking with a pot in the kitchen, before they invent cooking, pots or kitchens? And I don't understand how it is that a plush toy is female, but a stuffed dog is ungendered. I'd be interested in reading the full papers if anyone can pass on links to the full papers. I'm sure I remember coming across these same studies previously. I suspect that negative results are not actually published and there is a lot of existing pressure to confirm existing cultural beliefs in order to actually get published. Look at what happened to the Harvard President Lawrence Summers when he questioned whether women have less aptitude for science. There is a lot of emotion behind this (and I won't deny being very biased myself). Though I have to admit that the evidence does point towards a gendered difference in toy preference, I just felt the need to question its conclusiveness.
- thelamest 13y ago
  1. Yes, there are differences between sexes/genders. 2. No, they are not of stereotypical delineation/clarity/scale. If anything, we now know more than ever that while people vary, there is no reason to generalize against any social group ability in any matter. 3a. First study: female apes are more interested in tool-like sticks than male apes. 3b. Second study: female apes are equally interested in "feminine" and "masculine" toys. 3c. Third study: a doll attracts 20% of female vs 8% of male ape attention. .pdfs of mentioned papers are easily findable on Google Scholar.

RivieraKid 13y ago

I don't know whether what you're saying is true but is it backed by evidence or just an assumption?