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Any of the myriad of good languages available out there? Php is only easy to install because it comes pre-installed in most low-end servers out there. Without

Any of the myriad of good languages available out there? Php is only easy to install because it comes pre-installed in most low-end servers out there. Without that fact, php is just as cumbersome to get started as any other language.

protomyth 13y ago
"Php is only easy to install because it comes pre-installed in most low-end servers out there. Without that fact, php is just as cumbersome to get started as any other language." It comes installed because it is easy to install. Someone had to install it and PHP is sure easy for any SysAdmin to get installed. It is easy to start because the PHP folks made it easy to get started. Look at the steps to get PHP installed versus other languages. Then look at what "Hello World" and a simple form take.
- fuzzix 13y ago
  > "Look at the steps to get PHP installed versus other languages" Not much different to getting CGI working. If you need it working well, FastCGI is as much effort as PHP-fpm. SUexec is as much effort as SUPHP. Any language could supplant PHP in terms of ease of deployment, there's little out there that doesn't have some CGI library to handle the mucky parts. Not that I am advocating use of CGI for anything non-trivial.
- weland 13y ago
  > Look at the steps to get PHP installed versus other languages. Then look at what "Hello World" and a simple form take. That's really just not true. Installing anything capable of CGI is as easy to install as PHP.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - protomyth 13y ago
    It seems many hosting companies or their sysadmins don't agree since PHP gets installed and Ruby, etc. doesn't. PHP is an easy to install module and very easy to do the first program since its just a part of the webpage. If you want your favorite language to replace PHP, then you have to make it easy for the sysadmin to install (preferably 1 line) and for new programmers to be able to use the language by just uploading a file.
  - jmccree 13y ago
    Yeah, but PHP use as CGI was likely never more than 1% of the market. What most people mean is installing mod_php is easier than setting up another language via cgi or fastcgi.
Killswitch 13y ago
sudo apt-get install apache2 php5 libapache2-mod-php5 Boom, I just installed PHP5 on Apache on Ubuntu, now I just upload a file to my project root. Let me know when you find any way easier than that.
- jtreminio 13y ago
  php5 installs apache, by default.
  - Killswitch 13y ago
    Good to know, I haven't used Apache in a while. I normally use Nginx, but that's not quite as easy to get up and running because you got to set PHP5-FPM sockets in your virtual host. ;)
    - bhauer 13y ago
      There's the rub, really. I have been fascinated by how quickly the "it's so easy to install" mantra is replaced with "only a noob would use those settings, let me link you to a detailed guide on how you should really use PHP," at which point it becomes more complicated to install than alternatives. I am not a fan, so I am biased. But I've never quite seen the appeal of such a superficial attribute as "it's already on my cheap server." Are we not programmers? How hard is it, really, to install a JVM, Python, Ruby, Go, or any other platform? It's never taken me more than scarce minutes. To my mind, it seems widespread delirium prioritizing such a non-priority over peace of mind and performance. It's akin to selecting an operating system based on the fonts it ships with.
      - jarek 13y ago
        > But I've never quite seen the appeal of such a superficial attribute as "it's already on my cheap server." Are we not programmers? Most people who start out programming PHP aren't programmers. (I think that's a good thing FWIW.) The ease to non-programmers explains the wide spread which is what the discussion is about.
bch 13y ago
> just as cumbersome to get started as any other language. Any other language that has dedicated .INI files to determine its behaviour, maybe. PHP caught on because of "Hello world" in a web browser, and smart people didn't realize the value of novelty.

protomyth 13y ago

"Php is only easy to install because it comes pre-installed in most low-end servers out there. Without that fact, php is just as cumbersome to get started as any other language." It comes installed because it is easy to install. Someone had to install it and PHP is sure easy for any SysAdmin to get installed. It is easy to start because the PHP folks made it easy to get started. Look at the steps to get PHP installed versus other languages. Then look at what "Hello World" and a simple form take.

fuzzix 13y ago
> "Look at the steps to get PHP installed versus other languages" Not much different to getting CGI working. If you need it working well, FastCGI is as much effort as PHP-fpm. SUexec is as much effort as SUPHP. Any language could supplant PHP in terms of ease of deployment, there's little out there that doesn't have some CGI library to handle the mucky parts. Not that I am advocating use of CGI for anything non-trivial.
weland 13y ago
> Look at the steps to get PHP installed versus other languages. Then look at what "Hello World" and a simple form take. That's really just not true. Installing anything capable of CGI is as easy to install as PHP.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- protomyth 13y ago
  It seems many hosting companies or their sysadmins don't agree since PHP gets installed and Ruby, etc. doesn't. PHP is an easy to install module and very easy to do the first program since its just a part of the webpage. If you want your favorite language to replace PHP, then you have to make it easy for the sysadmin to install (preferably 1 line) and for new programmers to be able to use the language by just uploading a file.
- jmccree 13y ago
  Yeah, but PHP use as CGI was likely never more than 1% of the market. What most people mean is installing mod_php is easier than setting up another language via cgi or fastcgi.

Killswitch 13y ago

sudo apt-get install apache2 php5 libapache2-mod-php5 Boom, I just installed PHP5 on Apache on Ubuntu, now I just upload a file to my project root. Let me know when you find any way easier than that.

jtreminio 13y ago
php5 installs apache, by default.
- Killswitch 13y ago
  Good to know, I haven't used Apache in a while. I normally use Nginx, but that's not quite as easy to get up and running because you got to set PHP5-FPM sockets in your virtual host. ;)
  - bhauer 13y ago
    There's the rub, really. I have been fascinated by how quickly the "it's so easy to install" mantra is replaced with "only a noob would use those settings, let me link you to a detailed guide on how you should really use PHP," at which point it becomes more complicated to install than alternatives. I am not a fan, so I am biased. But I've never quite seen the appeal of such a superficial attribute as "it's already on my cheap server." Are we not programmers? How hard is it, really, to install a JVM, Python, Ruby, Go, or any other platform? It's never taken me more than scarce minutes. To my mind, it seems widespread delirium prioritizing such a non-priority over peace of mind and performance. It's akin to selecting an operating system based on the fonts it ships with.
    - jarek 13y ago
      > But I've never quite seen the appeal of such a superficial attribute as "it's already on my cheap server." Are we not programmers? Most people who start out programming PHP aren't programmers. (I think that's a good thing FWIW.) The ease to non-programmers explains the wide spread which is what the discussion is about.

bch 13y ago

> just as cumbersome to get started as any other language. Any other language that has dedicated .INI files to determine its behaviour, maybe. PHP caught on because of "Hello world" in a web browser, and smart people didn't realize the value of novelty.