6 ms·

that has generated billions and billions of dollars for the world economy. That's an interesting thought. Has it? I wonder what a lot of websites would have

by mehwoot 13y ago

that has generated billions and billions of dollars for the world economy. That's an interesting thought. Has it? I wonder what a lot of websites would have used if PHP has not been around. I wonder if, overall, PHP existing has actually generated billions and billions of dollars in value.

eru 13y ago
Perhaps not in value, but in GDP?
protomyth 13y ago
Not sure what they would have used because it seems like no other language makes it quite as easy to install and start using. I get the feeling a lot of language designers don't really get that some poor sap has to get the language installed on the web server.
- felipellrocha 13y ago
  Any of the myriad of good languages available out there? Php is only easy to install because it comes pre-installed in most low-end servers out there. Without that fact, php is just as cumbersome to get started as any other language.
  - protomyth 13y ago
    "Php is only easy to install because it comes pre-installed in most low-end servers out there. Without that fact, php is just as cumbersome to get started as any other language." It comes installed because it is easy to install. Someone had to install it and PHP is sure easy for any SysAdmin to get installed. It is easy to start because the PHP folks made it easy to get started. Look at the steps to get PHP installed versus other languages. Then look at what "Hello World" and a simple form take.
    - fuzzix 13y ago
      > "Look at the steps to get PHP installed versus other languages" Not much different to getting CGI working. If you need it working well, FastCGI is as much effort as PHP-fpm. SUexec is as much effort as SUPHP. Any language could supplant PHP in terms of ease of deployment, there's little out there that doesn't have some CGI library to handle the mucky parts. Not that I am advocating use of CGI for anything non-trivial.
    - weland 13y ago
      > Look at the steps to get PHP installed versus other languages. Then look at what "Hello World" and a simple form take. That's really just not true. Installing anything capable of CGI is as easy to install as PHP.
      - deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
      - protomyth 13y ago
        It seems many hosting companies or their sysadmins don't agree since PHP gets installed and Ruby, etc. doesn't. PHP is an easy to install module and very easy to do the first program since its just a part of the webpage. If you want your favorite language to replace PHP, then you have to make it easy for the sysadmin to install (preferably 1 line) and for new programmers to be able to use the language by just uploading a file.
      - jmccree 13y ago
        Yeah, but PHP use as CGI was likely never more than 1% of the market. What most people mean is installing mod_php is easier than setting up another language via cgi or fastcgi.
  - Killswitch 13y ago
    sudo apt-get install apache2 php5 libapache2-mod-php5 Boom, I just installed PHP5 on Apache on Ubuntu, now I just upload a file to my project root. Let me know when you find any way easier than that.
    - jtreminio 13y ago
      php5 installs apache, by default.
      - Killswitch 13y ago
        Good to know, I haven't used Apache in a while. I normally use Nginx, but that's not quite as easy to get up and running because you got to set PHP5-FPM sockets in your virtual host. ;)
        bhauer 13y ago
        There's the rub, really. I have been fascinated by how quickly the "it's so easy to install" mantra is replaced with "only a noob would use those settings, let me link you to a detailed guide on how you should really use PHP," at which point it becomes more complicated to install than alternatives. I am not a fan, so I am biased. But I've never quite seen the appeal of such a superficial attribute as "it's already on my cheap server." Are we not programmers? How hard is it, really, to install a JVM, Python, Ruby, Go, or any other platform? It's never taken me more than scarce minutes. To my mind, it seems widespread delirium prioritizing such a non-priority over peace of mind and performance. It's akin to selecting an operating system based on the fonts it ships with.
        jarek 13y ago
        > But I've never quite seen the appeal of such a superficial attribute as "it's already on my cheap server." Are we not programmers? Most people who start out programming PHP aren't programmers. (I think that's a good thing FWIW.) The ease to non-programmers explains the wide spread which is what the discussion is about.
  - bch 13y ago
    > just as cumbersome to get started as any other language. Any other language that has dedicated .INI files to determine its behaviour, maybe. PHP caught on because of "Hello world" in a web browser, and smart people didn't realize the value of novelty.
yen223 13y ago
If people adopted a better-designed language, maybe that could have generated trillions and trillions of dollars for the economy.
- protomyth 13y ago
  We had better designed languages. The problem is getting them installed and easy of learning. The better designed languages weren't better in those areas.
  - 2muchcoffeeman 13y ago
    Oh the other hand a company like Facebook uses it and then they have to resort to developing Hip Hop to wring out more performance.
    - thezilch 13y ago
      On the other hand, they have to resort to writing it in X and probably having a smaller and more expensive pool of talent to pull from. Not to mention, it may have never been a product to begin with or come to fruition fast enough under a different language. I guess everyone should be writing in C, in the event they get to Facebook scale where the economies tip towards running in a faster runtime? Oh wait, there are plenty of C haters, too; let's go shopping!
    - bermanoid 13y ago
      And plenty of companies move away from Python and Ruby once they hit "own our own data center" scale, too. You only optimize once it's worth it.
knieveltech 13y ago
Perl.
jmccree 13y ago
I can't say whether something else wouldn't have replaced PHP eventually, but I can say PHP definitely played it's part in making the web we know today. Back in the day, say circa 2000, unless you were wealthy/lucky enough to have your own server around, if you wanted a website you were stuck with shared hosting. Many of us "web devs" were running desktop windows and had never even used a *nix command line or studied programming beyond BASIC. CGI (perl) scripts were absolutely painful to install, much less write. Dealing with stdin just to get post variables? Python and Ruby were rarely supported as CGI, and there were likely no web frameworks back then that you could manage to install on a shared account. Besides, a lot us back then weren't programmers to being with, we just wanted a web site to scratch an itch. Programming was a means to an end, and I think the rasmus quotes support that. Enter PHP(&mod_php). Open up your FTP client, rename index.html to index.php, edit to add Hello <?=$name?>, load up index.php?name=Bob in IE, see "Hello Bob", MIND BLOWN! PHP was easy to use, learn, and it came with a huge function library built in. It was a sandbox to play in. The barrier of entrance difference between cgi/perl and PHP was like GIMP to Windows Paint. The number of web scripts available to use exploded after PHP hit the scene. Message boards, calendars, photo galleries, shopping carts, etc. Sure, a lot of the code written was horrible by today's standards, or even CS standards of then, but that's not the point. Websites were launched, communities were formed, products were sold. Sure phpBB, wordpress, and others code was not properly engineered, but where would the web be without the communities and blogs they allowed to form? Facebook started on shared PHP hosting. The mediawiki script was created because Magnus Manske wanted to try out PHP. Yahoo actually chose PHP to replace their in-house scripting language over ASP, Coldfusion, and other proprietary options when using open source was a huge risk. Python and ruby were not even on the web radar when yahoo chose PHP. [1] Now today we may look at the code derived from the era before python, ruby, svn, github, cheap easy VPS/VM access, when shared web hosting was the only PaaS, and look in horror, but the fact remains that PHP powers 75% or more of all websites on the internet today.[2][3] To ask if PHP has generated value, is to ask if Windows has generated value. They may have been ugly, but they got us where we are today, and the PHP of today is not the PHP of 2000. [1] http://public.yahoo.com/bfrance/radwin/talks/yahoo-phpcon2002.htm http://public.yahoo.com/bfrance/radwin/talks/yahoo-phpcon200... [2] http://venturebeat.com/2013/05/17/google-app-engine-finally-supports-php-the-language-that-runs-75-of-the-web/?goback=%2Egde_3801163_member_242396297#%21 http://venturebeat.com/2013/05/17/google-app-engine-finally-... [3] http://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language/all http://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_languag...

by mehwoot 13y ago

eru 13y ago

Perhaps not in value, but in GDP?

protomyth 13y ago

Not sure what they would have used because it seems like no other language makes it quite as easy to install and start using. I get the feeling a lot of language designers don't really get that some poor sap has to get the language installed on the web server.

felipellrocha 13y ago
Any of the myriad of good languages available out there? Php is only easy to install because it comes pre-installed in most low-end servers out there. Without that fact, php is just as cumbersome to get started as any other language.
- protomyth 13y ago
  "Php is only easy to install because it comes pre-installed in most low-end servers out there. Without that fact, php is just as cumbersome to get started as any other language." It comes installed because it is easy to install. Someone had to install it and PHP is sure easy for any SysAdmin to get installed. It is easy to start because the PHP folks made it easy to get started. Look at the steps to get PHP installed versus other languages. Then look at what "Hello World" and a simple form take.
  - fuzzix 13y ago
    > "Look at the steps to get PHP installed versus other languages" Not much different to getting CGI working. If you need it working well, FastCGI is as much effort as PHP-fpm. SUexec is as much effort as SUPHP. Any language could supplant PHP in terms of ease of deployment, there's little out there that doesn't have some CGI library to handle the mucky parts. Not that I am advocating use of CGI for anything non-trivial.
  - weland 13y ago
    > Look at the steps to get PHP installed versus other languages. Then look at what "Hello World" and a simple form take. That's really just not true. Installing anything capable of CGI is as easy to install as PHP.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - protomyth 13y ago
      It seems many hosting companies or their sysadmins don't agree since PHP gets installed and Ruby, etc. doesn't. PHP is an easy to install module and very easy to do the first program since its just a part of the webpage. If you want your favorite language to replace PHP, then you have to make it easy for the sysadmin to install (preferably 1 line) and for new programmers to be able to use the language by just uploading a file.
    - jmccree 13y ago
      Yeah, but PHP use as CGI was likely never more than 1% of the market. What most people mean is installing mod_php is easier than setting up another language via cgi or fastcgi.
- Killswitch 13y ago
  sudo apt-get install apache2 php5 libapache2-mod-php5 Boom, I just installed PHP5 on Apache on Ubuntu, now I just upload a file to my project root. Let me know when you find any way easier than that.
  - jtreminio 13y ago
    php5 installs apache, by default.
    - Killswitch 13y ago
      Good to know, I haven't used Apache in a while. I normally use Nginx, but that's not quite as easy to get up and running because you got to set PHP5-FPM sockets in your virtual host. ;)
      - bhauer 13y ago
        There's the rub, really. I have been fascinated by how quickly the "it's so easy to install" mantra is replaced with "only a noob would use those settings, let me link you to a detailed guide on how you should really use PHP," at which point it becomes more complicated to install than alternatives. I am not a fan, so I am biased. But I've never quite seen the appeal of such a superficial attribute as "it's already on my cheap server." Are we not programmers? How hard is it, really, to install a JVM, Python, Ruby, Go, or any other platform? It's never taken me more than scarce minutes. To my mind, it seems widespread delirium prioritizing such a non-priority over peace of mind and performance. It's akin to selecting an operating system based on the fonts it ships with.
        jarek 13y ago
        > But I've never quite seen the appeal of such a superficial attribute as "it's already on my cheap server." Are we not programmers? Most people who start out programming PHP aren't programmers. (I think that's a good thing FWIW.) The ease to non-programmers explains the wide spread which is what the discussion is about.
- bch 13y ago
  > just as cumbersome to get started as any other language. Any other language that has dedicated .INI files to determine its behaviour, maybe. PHP caught on because of "Hello world" in a web browser, and smart people didn't realize the value of novelty.

yen223 13y ago

If people adopted a better-designed language, maybe that could have generated trillions and trillions of dollars for the economy.

protomyth 13y ago
We had better designed languages. The problem is getting them installed and easy of learning. The better designed languages weren't better in those areas.
- 2muchcoffeeman 13y ago
  Oh the other hand a company like Facebook uses it and then they have to resort to developing Hip Hop to wring out more performance.
  - thezilch 13y ago
    On the other hand, they have to resort to writing it in X and probably having a smaller and more expensive pool of talent to pull from. Not to mention, it may have never been a product to begin with or come to fruition fast enough under a different language. I guess everyone should be writing in C, in the event they get to Facebook scale where the economies tip towards running in a faster runtime? Oh wait, there are plenty of C haters, too; let's go shopping!
  - bermanoid 13y ago
    And plenty of companies move away from Python and Ruby once they hit "own our own data center" scale, too. You only optimize once it's worth it.

knieveltech 13y ago

Perl.

jmccree 13y ago

I can't say whether something else wouldn't have replaced PHP eventually, but I can say PHP definitely played it's part in making the web we know today. Back in the day, say circa 2000, unless you were wealthy/lucky enough to have your own server around, if you wanted a website you were stuck with shared hosting. Many of us "web devs" were running desktop windows and had never even used a *nix command line or studied programming beyond BASIC. CGI (perl) scripts were absolutely painful to install, much less write. Dealing with stdin just to get post variables? Python and Ruby were rarely supported as CGI, and there were likely no web frameworks back then that you could manage to install on a shared account. Besides, a lot us back then weren't programmers to being with, we just wanted a web site to scratch an itch. Programming was a means to an end, and I think the rasmus quotes support that. Enter PHP(&mod_php). Open up your FTP client, rename index.html to index.php, edit to add Hello <?=$name?>, load up index.php?name=Bob in IE, see "Hello Bob", MIND BLOWN! PHP was easy to use, learn, and it came with a huge function library built in. It was a sandbox to play in. The barrier of entrance difference between cgi/perl and PHP was like GIMP to Windows Paint. The number of web scripts available to use exploded after PHP hit the scene. Message boards, calendars, photo galleries, shopping carts, etc. Sure, a lot of the code written was horrible by today's standards, or even CS standards of then, but that's not the point. Websites were launched, communities were formed, products were sold. Sure phpBB, wordpress, and others code was not properly engineered, but where would the web be without the communities and blogs they allowed to form? Facebook started on shared PHP hosting. The mediawiki script was created because Magnus Manske wanted to try out PHP. Yahoo actually chose PHP to replace their in-house scripting language over ASP, Coldfusion, and other proprietary options when using open source was a huge risk. Python and ruby were not even on the web radar when yahoo chose PHP. [1] Now today we may look at the code derived from the era before python, ruby, svn, github, cheap easy VPS/VM access, when shared web hosting was the only PaaS, and look in horror, but the fact remains that PHP powers 75% or more of all websites on the internet today.[2][3] To ask if PHP has generated value, is to ask if Windows has generated value. They may have been ugly, but they got us where we are today, and the PHP of today is not the PHP of 2000. [1] http://public.yahoo.com/bfrance/radwin/talks/yahoo-phpcon2002.htm http://public.yahoo.com/bfrance/radwin/talks/yahoo-phpcon200... [2] http://venturebeat.com/2013/05/17/google-app-engine-finally-supports-php-the-language-that-runs-75-of-the-web/?goback=%2Egde_3801163_member_242396297#%21 http://venturebeat.com/2013/05/17/google-app-engine-finally-... [3] http://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language/all http://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_languag...