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Now maybe my brand of Christianity was pretty unusually wacko (Lutherans are the real nutters right? Total extremists, rivals of those Westboro chaps really...

by Crito 13y ago

Now maybe my brand of Christianity was pretty unusually wacko (Lutherans are the real nutters right? Total extremists, rivals of those Westboro chaps really... /s), but I am pretty sure they explicitly endorsed homebrew divination. The idea that you could "do it yourself" is actually a rather central concept to that particular brand of religion, though instead of tea leaves it used sore knees...

smsm42 13y ago
I have hard time believing Lutherans really go against direct word of the Bible (which is, as far as I know, according to their faith, a direct word of God) and practice divination, but I admit, I don't know too much about the details of the Lutheran faith. If I had to choose, I'd rather point at Calvinists with their predestination and signs of being among the saved, even though even there you can't really solicit those signs AFAIK. But as for Lutherans - could you explain which practice of Lutherans you mean - what exactly and using which procedures Lutherans are using for fortune telling?
- Crito 13y ago
  Lutherans, much like modern Catholics (the two seem to differ mainly in organizational layout these days, most of Martin Luther's grievances have been since corrected by the RCC..) and like most other protestants (I dare not say "all", but it probably is not far off) consult with their god. They ask their god for advice and guidance, and claim to receive responses in various forms. You can clasp your hands and ask your god to tell you how to confront your son about that magazine you found in his backpack, or you can brew some tea and look into the tea leaves for a message from the gods. These are fundamentally the same concept, except the tea leaves method is not blessed by Christians, and presumably the clasp hands method is not blessed by whoever reads tea leaves... Prayer is functionally indistinguishable from divination. Divination that is whitelisted by your flavor of Christianity is called "prayer". The sorts that are not whitelisted are called "divination" or "witchcraft." This can be seen clearly within Christianity when you consider the schism between some of the more extreme flavors of Protestantism and Catholicism. I have, on more than one occasion heard protestants describe various aspects of Catholicism as witchcraft and idolatry. Most of the accusations center around the issue of saints and the Virgin Mary, and whether it is acceptable to ask them to pray on your behalf. Many[all?] protestants do not consider this to be a blessed form of divination, thus the less mellow among them consider it to be witchcraft or whatever.
  - smsm42 13y ago
    >>> They ask their god for advice and guidance, and claim to receive responses in various forms. I think you taking it too literally. When religious person says "God blessed me with the gift of children", they rarely mean that the God - as an actual supernatural being - came to them in person and produced their children as a gift. Most probably, they know exactly where the children come from, and were actually present when those were conceived and born, and even though God might have been mentioned on both occasions, rarely they would claim The Almighty was personally present there and did the work. It is a metaphor expressing the idea of the Providence and God's control and responsibility about what happens to people. In the same way, when they say "I prayed and God let me see the solution of my problem", they rarely mean God personally came down to them in a burning bush, spoke to them and gave them detailed step-by-step instruction of how to solve their problems. Etc., etc. >>> Prayer is functionally indistinguishable from divination. Prayer is nothing like the divination. Prayer is an expression of certain feelings or formulae about the supernatural. Divination is a mechanistic procedure in which one would, after performing required ritual, receive information about the future or otherwise inaccessible information. Of course, you can pray for success of your divination, or you can try to divine if your prayer would be followed by some event, but those are two functionally very different actions. Note that for prayer, one usually is required to be a believer, while for divination you don't really have to believe in anything as long as you perform the ritual properly. This, btw, is a big different between modern religion and old religions - most of the old religions couldn't care less what you think as long as you do proper procedures. Modern ones rather concerned about morals and feelings and beliefs and all that immaterial stuff. >>> I have, on more than one occasion heard protestants describe various aspects of Catholicism as witchcraft and idolatry. I have heard the whole Christianity described as idolatry. So what? The question if Christianity is idolatry or not from the POV of anybody is not the question we were discussing. >>> whether it is acceptable to ask them to pray on your behalf I can imagine how it may be a problem for an ostensibly monotheistic religion, but that does not make a prayer a divination. Of course, that does not mean actual Christians never engage in practices which are, in fact, divination - but people violating the premises of their own religion is nothing new. I can give you Jews eating pork, Muslims drinking wine and Christians hating their fellow man. It happens. However, the religion as a belief system and as a social mechanism does not endorse it.
tedunangst 13y ago
Divination or guidance? Saying "Please God, help know whether to take the job in Cleveland when I wake up" and then sleeping on it was probably acceptable. "Please God, let me roll snake eyes if I should move to Cleveland" is probably less acceptable.
- Crito 13y ago
  There is no fundamental difference here. Clasping your hands, asking a god for guidance in your head, then interpreting your own thoughts as the advice of a god is really no different from asking a god a question, putting your hands on a Ouija board, letting the ideomotor effect do its thing, then interpreting the output of the ideomotor effect as the word of your god. The only difference is that mainstream Christianity blesses one method, and derogatorily refers to the other methods as witchcraft or divination. Different religions all have their own forms of blessed divination, and forbidden divination, and they all assert that their blessed methods are fundamentally different from the others, but it is all the same stuff.
  - tedunangst 13y ago
    There is a major difference: physical manifestation.
    - spacehome 13y ago
      Only if the mind is not part of physics.
    - Crito 13y ago
      Physical manifestation? It is all physical! You cannot escape the physical. Whether you are making the decision in your mind then convincing yourself the conclusion is an idea that came from a god and not yourself, or if you are making the decision in your mind, spelling it out, then convincing yourself the conclusion is an idea that came from a god... either one is magical thinking and either one is taking place in the 'physical world'. You don't need the Ouija board for one of them, but you are just listing your personal whitelist criteria to me. Either one is still magical thinking.

by Crito 13y ago

smsm42 13y ago

I have hard time believing Lutherans really go against direct word of the Bible (which is, as far as I know, according to their faith, a direct word of God) and practice divination, but I admit, I don't know too much about the details of the Lutheran faith. If I had to choose, I'd rather point at Calvinists with their predestination and signs of being among the saved, even though even there you can't really solicit those signs AFAIK. But as for Lutherans - could you explain which practice of Lutherans you mean - what exactly and using which procedures Lutherans are using for fortune telling?

Crito 13y ago
Lutherans, much like modern Catholics (the two seem to differ mainly in organizational layout these days, most of Martin Luther's grievances have been since corrected by the RCC..) and like most other protestants (I dare not say "all", but it probably is not far off) consult with their god. They ask their god for advice and guidance, and claim to receive responses in various forms. You can clasp your hands and ask your god to tell you how to confront your son about that magazine you found in his backpack, or you can brew some tea and look into the tea leaves for a message from the gods. These are fundamentally the same concept, except the tea leaves method is not blessed by Christians, and presumably the clasp hands method is not blessed by whoever reads tea leaves... Prayer is functionally indistinguishable from divination. Divination that is whitelisted by your flavor of Christianity is called "prayer". The sorts that are not whitelisted are called "divination" or "witchcraft." This can be seen clearly within Christianity when you consider the schism between some of the more extreme flavors of Protestantism and Catholicism. I have, on more than one occasion heard protestants describe various aspects of Catholicism as witchcraft and idolatry. Most of the accusations center around the issue of saints and the Virgin Mary, and whether it is acceptable to ask them to pray on your behalf. Many[all?] protestants do not consider this to be a blessed form of divination, thus the less mellow among them consider it to be witchcraft or whatever.
- smsm42 13y ago
  >>> They ask their god for advice and guidance, and claim to receive responses in various forms. I think you taking it too literally. When religious person says "God blessed me with the gift of children", they rarely mean that the God - as an actual supernatural being - came to them in person and produced their children as a gift. Most probably, they know exactly where the children come from, and were actually present when those were conceived and born, and even though God might have been mentioned on both occasions, rarely they would claim The Almighty was personally present there and did the work. It is a metaphor expressing the idea of the Providence and God's control and responsibility about what happens to people. In the same way, when they say "I prayed and God let me see the solution of my problem", they rarely mean God personally came down to them in a burning bush, spoke to them and gave them detailed step-by-step instruction of how to solve their problems. Etc., etc. >>> Prayer is functionally indistinguishable from divination. Prayer is nothing like the divination. Prayer is an expression of certain feelings or formulae about the supernatural. Divination is a mechanistic procedure in which one would, after performing required ritual, receive information about the future or otherwise inaccessible information. Of course, you can pray for success of your divination, or you can try to divine if your prayer would be followed by some event, but those are two functionally very different actions. Note that for prayer, one usually is required to be a believer, while for divination you don't really have to believe in anything as long as you perform the ritual properly. This, btw, is a big different between modern religion and old religions - most of the old religions couldn't care less what you think as long as you do proper procedures. Modern ones rather concerned about morals and feelings and beliefs and all that immaterial stuff. >>> I have, on more than one occasion heard protestants describe various aspects of Catholicism as witchcraft and idolatry. I have heard the whole Christianity described as idolatry. So what? The question if Christianity is idolatry or not from the POV of anybody is not the question we were discussing. >>> whether it is acceptable to ask them to pray on your behalf I can imagine how it may be a problem for an ostensibly monotheistic religion, but that does not make a prayer a divination. Of course, that does not mean actual Christians never engage in practices which are, in fact, divination - but people violating the premises of their own religion is nothing new. I can give you Jews eating pork, Muslims drinking wine and Christians hating their fellow man. It happens. However, the religion as a belief system and as a social mechanism does not endorse it.

tedunangst 13y ago

Divination or guidance? Saying "Please God, help know whether to take the job in Cleveland when I wake up" and then sleeping on it was probably acceptable. "Please God, let me roll snake eyes if I should move to Cleveland" is probably less acceptable.

Crito 13y ago
There is no fundamental difference here. Clasping your hands, asking a god for guidance in your head, then interpreting your own thoughts as the advice of a god is really no different from asking a god a question, putting your hands on a Ouija board, letting the ideomotor effect do its thing, then interpreting the output of the ideomotor effect as the word of your god. The only difference is that mainstream Christianity blesses one method, and derogatorily refers to the other methods as witchcraft or divination. Different religions all have their own forms of blessed divination, and forbidden divination, and they all assert that their blessed methods are fundamentally different from the others, but it is all the same stuff.
- tedunangst 13y ago
  There is a major difference: physical manifestation.
  - spacehome 13y ago
    Only if the mind is not part of physics.
  - Crito 13y ago
    Physical manifestation? It is all physical! You cannot escape the physical. Whether you are making the decision in your mind then convincing yourself the conclusion is an idea that came from a god and not yourself, or if you are making the decision in your mind, spelling it out, then convincing yourself the conclusion is an idea that came from a god... either one is magical thinking and either one is taking place in the 'physical world'. You don't need the Ouija board for one of them, but you are just listing your personal whitelist criteria to me. Either one is still magical thinking.