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Choosing Costco over Amazon seems like a rather pointless moral stand to make. What about the people who work in the logging, fishing, and mining industries? Yo

Choosing Costco over Amazon seems like a rather pointless moral stand to make. What about the people who work in the logging, fishing, and mining industries? You probably use their products every day and they risk life and limb for similar salaries. What about everything made in a factory in a third world country? I bet Amazon's working conditions are far better than those of every factory in China.

marquis 13y ago
>I bet Amazon's working conditions are far better than those of every factory in China. Are we to drag ourselves down to the lowest common denominator for our citizens, in countries that have already fought the hard fight for worker rights?
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- samolang 13y ago
  In countries that have already fought the hard fight for worker rights there are laws in place to ensure workers' rights don't regress. Amazon isn't breaking any laws. The working conditions are safe, the employees are paid above minimum wage, and the employees are not working 80 hour weeks. The worst possible (legal) working conditions in these countries are far better than working conditions in third world countries. No matter what shopping choices you make, workers' rights in these countries will never regress to those of a third world country.
  - biafra 13y ago
    There is no minimum wage in Germany.
    - lsaferite 13y ago
      What? I find that incomprehensible. What is the replacement for that employee safeguard then?
      - computer 13y ago
        Unions and strikes, clearly.
      - samolang 13y ago
        From wikipedia: "The law states that paying a worker an "immoral wage" is illegal. There is no general consensus what constitutes 'immoral' payment. One judge at a court in Krefeld, Germany, ruled that a cashier at a supermarket has to earn the equivalent of approximately 7USD per hour. The federal courts in Germany ruled that any wage lower than 75% of the average wage or salary for a specific occupation constitutes illegal payment. However, since there is no well defined legal minimum wage as of February 2013, courts are usually the ones who have the final say and will only rule for individual cases."
      - masklinn 13y ago
        > What is the replacement for that employee safeguard then? Interestingly, as in Scandinavia (Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark and Iceland don't have minimum wages either), collective bargaining agreements consensually worked on by labor unions, employers and local governments. There tends to be base sector-, industry- or trade-specific agreements. Other comments[0] indicate Amazon apparently does not care for any of these. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6916415 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6916415
    - ama729 13y ago
      There is going to be one, it was one of the condition the socialist had before entering in a government with Merkel.
  - phaer 13y ago
    > workers' rights in these countries will never regress to those of a third world country. Except if enough people follow those "It's fine here, you are protected by the law and it's much much worse elsewhere, be happy with what get"-argumentation. Then the will probably regress because companies have a strong interest to produce cheaper than those in places where there are less regulations but they loose any interest in workers rights if there's no protesting working class. And companies interest, trough lobbying and so on, quickly becomes the governments interest.
weland 13y ago
> I bet Amazon's working conditions are far better than those of every factory in China. "Better than those of every factory in China" does not necessarily mean "Acceptable for the civilized world". Whenever I have the choice to not buy from a company where the working conditions are not acceptable for the civilized world, I try to make that choice. Yes, sadly, it's not always possible. This isn't a reason to just not care.
conorh 13y ago
You make good points. A few years ago I was converted to the idea of ethical spending - not sure if that is a term? As much as I can I do not buy items that I believe contribute to these issues. It is not always possible but for every purchase (groceries, toys, clothes etc.) I look for items not made in factories in China, that are created by companies with good employment policies and made with materials that are sustainable etc. etc. I prefer this (sometimes half measure) to just giving up altogether. I also find that these days it is easier and there is more information out there to help.
nollidge 13y ago
Gosh, good point! You can't fix everything, so why not just embrace all the moral failings of our culture? No point in making marginal progress! Fuck self-examination! Don't question it!
Fomite 13y ago
> I bet Amazon's working conditions are far better than those of every factory in China. Are you aware of the concept of 'Damning with faint praise'?
maxerickson 13y ago
Mining has gotten a lot safer in the U.S. It's roughly on par with farming or driving a taxi. Oil and gas workers face more danger than other miners (I guess this is mostly because of the decline of mining in general and tendency for open pit mines over other types of operations). Fishing and logging are still tremendously dangerous, but, for instance, fisherman in Alaska average more than $20,000 a year from their off-season non fishing jobs. http://labor.alaska.gov/research/seafood/seafood.htm http://labor.alaska.gov/research/seafood/seafood.htm

marquis 13y ago

>I bet Amazon's working conditions are far better than those of every factory in China. Are we to drag ourselves down to the lowest common denominator for our citizens, in countries that have already fought the hard fight for worker rights?

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
samolang 13y ago
In countries that have already fought the hard fight for worker rights there are laws in place to ensure workers' rights don't regress. Amazon isn't breaking any laws. The working conditions are safe, the employees are paid above minimum wage, and the employees are not working 80 hour weeks. The worst possible (legal) working conditions in these countries are far better than working conditions in third world countries. No matter what shopping choices you make, workers' rights in these countries will never regress to those of a third world country.
- biafra 13y ago
  There is no minimum wage in Germany.
  - lsaferite 13y ago
    What? I find that incomprehensible. What is the replacement for that employee safeguard then?
    - computer 13y ago
      Unions and strikes, clearly.
    - samolang 13y ago
      From wikipedia: "The law states that paying a worker an "immoral wage" is illegal. There is no general consensus what constitutes 'immoral' payment. One judge at a court in Krefeld, Germany, ruled that a cashier at a supermarket has to earn the equivalent of approximately 7USD per hour. The federal courts in Germany ruled that any wage lower than 75% of the average wage or salary for a specific occupation constitutes illegal payment. However, since there is no well defined legal minimum wage as of February 2013, courts are usually the ones who have the final say and will only rule for individual cases."
    - masklinn 13y ago
      > What is the replacement for that employee safeguard then? Interestingly, as in Scandinavia (Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark and Iceland don't have minimum wages either), collective bargaining agreements consensually worked on by labor unions, employers and local governments. There tends to be base sector-, industry- or trade-specific agreements. Other comments[0] indicate Amazon apparently does not care for any of these. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6916415 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6916415
  - ama729 13y ago
    There is going to be one, it was one of the condition the socialist had before entering in a government with Merkel.
- phaer 13y ago
  > workers' rights in these countries will never regress to those of a third world country. Except if enough people follow those "It's fine here, you are protected by the law and it's much much worse elsewhere, be happy with what get"-argumentation. Then the will probably regress because companies have a strong interest to produce cheaper than those in places where there are less regulations but they loose any interest in workers rights if there's no protesting working class. And companies interest, trough lobbying and so on, quickly becomes the governments interest.

weland 13y ago

> I bet Amazon's working conditions are far better than those of every factory in China. "Better than those of every factory in China" does not necessarily mean "Acceptable for the civilized world". Whenever I have the choice to not buy from a company where the working conditions are not acceptable for the civilized world, I try to make that choice. Yes, sadly, it's not always possible. This isn't a reason to just not care.

conorh 13y ago

You make good points. A few years ago I was converted to the idea of ethical spending - not sure if that is a term? As much as I can I do not buy items that I believe contribute to these issues. It is not always possible but for every purchase (groceries, toys, clothes etc.) I look for items not made in factories in China, that are created by companies with good employment policies and made with materials that are sustainable etc. etc. I prefer this (sometimes half measure) to just giving up altogether. I also find that these days it is easier and there is more information out there to help.

nollidge 13y ago

Gosh, good point! You can't fix everything, so why not just embrace all the moral failings of our culture? No point in making marginal progress! Fuck self-examination! Don't question it!

Fomite 13y ago

> I bet Amazon's working conditions are far better than those of every factory in China. Are you aware of the concept of 'Damning with faint praise'?

maxerickson 13y ago

Mining has gotten a lot safer in the U.S. It's roughly on par with farming or driving a taxi. Oil and gas workers face more danger than other miners (I guess this is mostly because of the decline of mining in general and tendency for open pit mines over other types of operations). Fishing and logging are still tremendously dangerous, but, for instance, fisherman in Alaska average more than $20,000 a year from their off-season non fishing jobs. http://labor.alaska.gov/research/seafood/seafood.htm http://labor.alaska.gov/research/seafood/seafood.htm