4 ms·

Feel free to refute my minimum wage example for starters. Here's another: 1) you want to help the poor 2) you confiscate wealth from other people, and give

Feel free to refute my minimum wage example for starters. Here's another: 1) you want to help the poor 2) you confiscate wealth from other people, and give it to the poor 3) you have just removed money from the economy and caused it to get used much less efficiently than it would have, and demotivated lots of people from doing business and producing value to the world at large.

eli_gottlieb 13y ago
No, you're not getting this. Claims require evidence. Non-claims do not require evidence. If you want to claim that minarcho-capitalism is the optimal social and economic system, such that anything else is downright immoral and wrong by comparison, then you have to justify that claim using evidence. In contrast, I do not have to justify my position that no ideology or system being proposed today is globally optimal. That is simply an accepted truism.
- anoncowherd 13y ago
  So you disregard my examples, declare that I need to "prove" things, and then proceed to tell me that you don't. Have a good day, Sir.
  - eli_gottlieb 13y ago
    Well, the simple fact is, empirical studies of minimum wages just don't show their having a macroeconomic effect on employment that overwhelms other effects. Neither do empirical studies on basic income experiments show them overwhelming other economic effects when it comes to "efficiency" (if you don't want your statement to be tautological, you need to define efficiency as something other than "that which the market does", by the way), employment, or anything else. So basically, you're preaching from a pulpit of pure theory and ideology, while I'm down here saying that you need to provide empirical proof and can't, and I'm not the one making a claim of global optimality.
    - anoncowherd 13y ago
      >> Well, the simple fact is, empirical studies of minimum wages just don't show their having a macroeconomic effect on employment that overwhelms other effects You don't get it. There's no need for "empirical studies", because it's a simple matter of reasoning. Suppose Person A is fresh out of high school or something, and Company B might be interested in hiring him as some kind of entry level worker. Person A has basically no experience in anything, so he's worth very little to the employer. He really wants a job though, because he needs to start some kind of career to get by in life. Suppose Company B consider's Person A's meager productivity worth $6 per hour, but the minimum wage is set to $10 per hour. Will Person A get the job? Well, no. The minimum wage prevents Person A from getting a job, and thus, getting experience and advancing his skills and future salary potential. Everyone loses. Person A has no job and no further experience, and Company B has no employee and a task left undone. If you still don't get it, imagine the minimum wage being set at $1000 per hour. If it's all good, then the higher you set it, the MOAR good will come out of it, right?
      - eli_gottlieb 13y ago
        >There's no need for "empirical studies", In which case you're preaching pure, deontological bunk with no relation to the real world whatsoever. You are literally claiming your ideology is the optimally moral economic system despite refusing even the concept of empirical evidence or justification. >If you still don't get it, imagine the minimum wage being set at $1000 per hour. If it's all good, then the higher you set it, the MOAR good will come out of it, right? Don't be ridiculous.
        anoncowherd 13y ago
        >> In which case you're preaching pure, deontological bunk with no relation to the real world whatsoever. I just gave you a real-world demonstration of why minimum wage is harmful, and in very clear terms too. But I'm done with you for now.

eli_gottlieb 13y ago

No, you're not getting this. Claims require evidence. Non-claims do not require evidence. If you want to claim that minarcho-capitalism is the optimal social and economic system, such that anything else is downright immoral and wrong by comparison, then you have to justify that claim using evidence. In contrast, I do not have to justify my position that no ideology or system being proposed today is globally optimal. That is simply an accepted truism.

anoncowherd 13y ago
So you disregard my examples, declare that I need to "prove" things, and then proceed to tell me that you don't. Have a good day, Sir.
- eli_gottlieb 13y ago
  Well, the simple fact is, empirical studies of minimum wages just don't show their having a macroeconomic effect on employment that overwhelms other effects. Neither do empirical studies on basic income experiments show them overwhelming other economic effects when it comes to "efficiency" (if you don't want your statement to be tautological, you need to define efficiency as something other than "that which the market does", by the way), employment, or anything else. So basically, you're preaching from a pulpit of pure theory and ideology, while I'm down here saying that you need to provide empirical proof and can't, and I'm not the one making a claim of global optimality.
  - anoncowherd 13y ago
    >> Well, the simple fact is, empirical studies of minimum wages just don't show their having a macroeconomic effect on employment that overwhelms other effects You don't get it. There's no need for "empirical studies", because it's a simple matter of reasoning. Suppose Person A is fresh out of high school or something, and Company B might be interested in hiring him as some kind of entry level worker. Person A has basically no experience in anything, so he's worth very little to the employer. He really wants a job though, because he needs to start some kind of career to get by in life. Suppose Company B consider's Person A's meager productivity worth $6 per hour, but the minimum wage is set to $10 per hour. Will Person A get the job? Well, no. The minimum wage prevents Person A from getting a job, and thus, getting experience and advancing his skills and future salary potential. Everyone loses. Person A has no job and no further experience, and Company B has no employee and a task left undone. If you still don't get it, imagine the minimum wage being set at $1000 per hour. If it's all good, then the higher you set it, the MOAR good will come out of it, right?
    - eli_gottlieb 13y ago
      >There's no need for "empirical studies", In which case you're preaching pure, deontological bunk with no relation to the real world whatsoever. You are literally claiming your ideology is the optimally moral economic system despite refusing even the concept of empirical evidence or justification. >If you still don't get it, imagine the minimum wage being set at $1000 per hour. If it's all good, then the higher you set it, the MOAR good will come out of it, right? Don't be ridiculous.
      - anoncowherd 13y ago
        >> In which case you're preaching pure, deontological bunk with no relation to the real world whatsoever. I just gave you a real-world demonstration of why minimum wage is harmful, and in very clear terms too. But I'm done with you for now.