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Is HTTPS not secure channel for communication between client-server? What is the reason behind using an entirely different protocol for client-server communicat

Is HTTPS not secure channel for communication between client-server? What is the reason behind using an entirely different protocol for client-server communication[0] over HTTP? [0] - http://core.telegram.org/mtproto http://core.telegram.org/mtproto

egeozcan 13y ago
I also don't get this. If we stopped trusting HTTPS, how are we supposed to make sure that we get an unmodified app from the play store, or the original source code from GitHub in the first place? Am I missing something?
- oakwhiz 13y ago
  HTTPS is fine, it's just all the x509 surrounding it that people are upset about
  - dchest 13y ago
    No, it's not fine. Currently the only secure version of TLS is 1.2 with AES-GCM; and it's still not deployed widely.
    - timclassic 13y ago
      Can you provide some more details for this claim? I'm interested.
      - dchest 13y ago
        Sure, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_Layer_Security#Attacks_against_TLS.2FSSL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_Layer_Security#Attac... https://community.qualys.com/blogs/securitylabs/2013/03/19/rc4-in-tls-is-broken-now-what https://community.qualys.com/blogs/securitylabs/2013/03/19/r...
    - oakwhiz 13y ago
      I stand corrected
- dchest 13y ago
  The fact that we have to trust TLS to deliver software doesn't automatically mean that we should trust it for secure messaging. Also, I think App Store software delivery doesn't depend on only TLS, but also on Apple's signature. And you can visually verify that the source code downloaded from GitHub doesn't contain backdoors.
  - egeozcan 13y ago
    My knowledge on cryptography is next to nothing. Would you mind explaining to me what makes the case for secure messaging different than any other transfer through a secured HTTP connection? I also read a bit on OTR Messaging and the "Socialist Millionaires' Protocol" but just got even more confused.
    - dchest 13y ago
      It's not that messaging can't use TLS, of course, it can. I'm objecting to the absolute (if we don't trust TLS for messaging, we shouldn't trust it one-time download), e.g. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threat_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threat_model
deleted 13y ago
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TelegramApp 13y ago
The main reason is speed. MTProto is designed to work fast on weak mobile connections. Another reason is security, with HTTPs you need to trust more parties.
- veeti 13y ago
  > Another reason is security, with HTTPs you need to trust more parties. No, you don't. Use a self-signed certificate that is hardcoded in the app.
  - JshWright 13y ago
    Or better yet, use a cert signed by a trusted CA and pi it in your app.

egeozcan 13y ago

I also don't get this. If we stopped trusting HTTPS, how are we supposed to make sure that we get an unmodified app from the play store, or the original source code from GitHub in the first place? Am I missing something?

oakwhiz 13y ago
HTTPS is fine, it's just all the x509 surrounding it that people are upset about
- dchest 13y ago
  No, it's not fine. Currently the only secure version of TLS is 1.2 with AES-GCM; and it's still not deployed widely.
  - timclassic 13y ago
    Can you provide some more details for this claim? I'm interested.
    - dchest 13y ago
      Sure, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_Layer_Security#Attacks_against_TLS.2FSSL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_Layer_Security#Attac... https://community.qualys.com/blogs/securitylabs/2013/03/19/rc4-in-tls-is-broken-now-what https://community.qualys.com/blogs/securitylabs/2013/03/19/r...
  - oakwhiz 13y ago
    I stand corrected
dchest 13y ago
The fact that we have to trust TLS to deliver software doesn't automatically mean that we should trust it for secure messaging. Also, I think App Store software delivery doesn't depend on only TLS, but also on Apple's signature. And you can visually verify that the source code downloaded from GitHub doesn't contain backdoors.
- egeozcan 13y ago
  My knowledge on cryptography is next to nothing. Would you mind explaining to me what makes the case for secure messaging different than any other transfer through a secured HTTP connection? I also read a bit on OTR Messaging and the "Socialist Millionaires' Protocol" but just got even more confused.
  - dchest 13y ago
    It's not that messaging can't use TLS, of course, it can. I'm objecting to the absolute (if we don't trust TLS for messaging, we shouldn't trust it one-time download), e.g. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threat_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threat_model

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

TelegramApp 13y ago

The main reason is speed. MTProto is designed to work fast on weak mobile connections. Another reason is security, with HTTPs you need to trust more parties.

veeti 13y ago
> Another reason is security, with HTTPs you need to trust more parties. No, you don't. Use a self-signed certificate that is hardcoded in the app.
- JshWright 13y ago
  Or better yet, use a cert signed by a trusted CA and pi it in your app.