6 ms·

Well, reading this article makes me wonder where I'm. If a 40 work week is tough, what about people like me who are having a routine 40 hour work week job and t

by kamaal 13y ago

Well, reading this article makes me wonder where I'm. If a 40 work week is tough, what about people like me who are having a routine 40 hour work week job and trying to bootstrap a company/work on side projects by the evening and night. I am sleep deprived regularly, often I just come to home totally tired after work and travel. Only to find I have to pick myself up and throw in another 5-6 hours. Add to this stress when things don't workout,an occasional bad day and occasions when I have to face failure after days of work. Plus I have a family to which I have to tend to. Often they feel I'm just not spending time with them. I completely agree that currently I'm in some sort of tiring march. I'm tired already. I see wins rarely, but continue to put in record efforts. On the other hand, I see the only reason I'm doing this is because. a. To some extent I enjoy what I'm doing. b. I want the money. c. I see I'm literally getting addicted to it. d. If I don't put such efforts, I feel guilty that I might just be getting lazy, or under performing. e. There are good deal of people whom I would like to prove wrong. I've discussed this with my mentor, who is a veteran of 3 successful start up's and has had a great career so far. He tells the modern internet techie's narrative of stress and tiredness is just plain whining, complaining and asking for sympathy. Though he agrees its a little stressful and tiring. Smart people eventually realize achieving something big demands hard sacrifices. I also see many other smart successful people putting ridiculous efforts day in and out to win. And its in every profession. Whether its sports, medicine, software, hardware etc. I feel at the end of the day, its just like a rubber band. You can stretch until it breaks. Some people just practice it stretching enough number of times to keep the breaking point a little high. After some time you just get numb, and absorb failures, stress, big sacrifices and just keep moving forward. And then what happens doesn't really matter.

Nursie 13y ago
>>If a 40 work week is tough, what about people like me who are having a routine 40 hour work week job and trying to bootstrap a company/work on side projects by the evening and night. You people are crazy! Now sure, you may achieve something huge and it might all be worth it. But in the mean time you're missing what remains of your youth and neglecting your family. You don't have to put that sort of time in to 'win' at life with software. You can make really good money and live a life inaccessible to 99.5% of the world's population by working 37 hours and being good at it. If you need to be part of the 0.5% then don't let me put you off trying, but I'd be giving serious thought to whether I really needed it or if my life would he better scaling it back and taking time with loved ones.
- icelancer 13y ago
  I am trying to change the world. So far, I've had some decent success. That will cost me part of my life, just as it has for everyone else who has changed the world in some meaningful way. It is the price we pay. And I'm not getting any younger. (Early 30's.)
  - Nursie 13y ago
    I wish you luck in your goals. I don't want to change the world, I want to enjoy it, which is why I take on consultancy work and take prolonged vacations in between. Life's too short whichever path you take :)
- beat 13y ago
  Which is crazier? A year or two of super-long hours to free yourself from the dayjob, or just working 40 hours a week for someone else until you're too old to do it anymore? I'm in the same boat, doing a spare-time startup while holding a day job. And I"m not young - my kids are grown. But I'm paying for their college, so I can't just quit and do the startup full-time, not until I've got it generating at least a little cashflow. The trick is to overwork but try to get on the shortest (leanest) path to revenue. But keep in mind that not everyone is doing a startup to get rich. Getting rich is a nice side effect, but the heart of it for me, and for a lot of others, is personal freedom.
  - Nursie 13y ago
    >> A year or two of super-long hours to free yourself from the dayjob, or just working 40 hours a week for someone else until you're too old to do it anymore? False dichotomy, there are other life choices. I'm a freelancer and I maintain a good income and a healthy work/life balance. I also don't believe it to be 'a year or two'. >> I'm in the same boat, doing a spare-time startup while holding a day job. And I"m not young - my kids are grown. Then you're in a different situation than the OP, IIRC. >> Getting rich is a nice side effect, but the heart of it for me, and for a lot of others, is personal freedom. This is why I like freelancing/contracting/consultancy. The money is good and the freedom is unparalleled.
icelancer 13y ago
>He tells the modern internet techie's narrative of stress and tiredness is just plain whining, complaining and asking for sympathy. Pretty much. When I was starting up my company, I was putting in 50 hour weeks at my IT job that I hated and another 10-30 (depending on mood) developing the tech and business processes for my current startup. We don't get to punch the clock and expect greatness.
- ryanbrunner 13y ago
  But isn't this article saying the exact opposite of this? It may be counter-intuitive, but every serious study I've seen regarding the amount that people work consistently says that 40 hours (or less) is ideal, and exceeding that for an extended duration (where "extended" is a very small amount of time like a few weeks) leads to negative productivity. It seems like there's often a lot of cognitive dissonance going on in these threads - when we're talking about managers or people other than us telling us to work > 40 hours a week, it's widely accepted as counterproductive, but when we do it ourselves, we ignore the data and revert back to platitudes about pushing yourself harder and not being complacent.
  - Dewie 13y ago
    Those studies might have involved people doing one job for all those hours, while the grandparent worked two jobs. Depending on how different they were, the variety might have been enough to offset some of the fatigue of working up to 80 hours a week in total.
  - GFischer 13y ago
    The GP post saiys he hated his 40-hour job, so we can assume he wasn't at his most productive there (it happens to me too).
flurdy 13y ago
> Plus I have a family to which I have to tend to. Often they feel I'm just not spending time with them. Working 40 hours week plus 5-6 hours afterwards every day does not mix with having a family, or especially not if you got kids. Maybe if you got a 5 minute commute you can do some hours but not 5-6. > I also see many other smart successful people putting ridiculous efforts day in and out to win. And its in every profession. And then there are the really smart people who realise they are most effective by not over doing the hours, but maximise the hours they do put in. You still have to put a good amount of effort as few fat sportsmen are successful, but also they know not to over train (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtraining https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtraining) and reduce risk of injury. I also refer to another recent HN article (http://mikehadlow.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/are-your-programmers-working-hard-or.html http://mikehadlow.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/are-your-programmer...) and its linked book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Mathematician's_Apology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Mathematician's_Apology).
- kamaal 13y ago
  >>does not mix with having a family Well that's the most stressful part. Its stressful because you need to be surrounded around by people who can appreciate what you are doing and why you are doing it. Either way what is I see is, and this is the case with nearly every one. Everyone's family wants a rich dad/husband/brother/wife/sister/mom, but no one really has a clue of what it takes to get there- Until they've done it themselves. I guess this is the reason why people marry in the same professions. To an extent it helps the spouse understand what the other person is going through. Also from the blog post you linked to: "I would submit that the appearance of hard work is often an indication of failure." Sorry but the author totally lost it when he wrote that.
  - Nursie 13y ago
    >> Everyone's family wants a rich dad/husband/brother/wife/sister/mom, but no one really has a clue of what it takes to get there- Until they've done it themselves. Some would rather have one that is present.
    - 13y ago
robertjwebb 13y ago
Why would your employer want you to start a company or work on side projects? Think of this from the boss's perspective - they want you to dedicate all of your energy to their work, not something else that won't even make them money.
- chris_mahan 13y ago
  Perhaps they don't have your best interest at heart. But then again, that's your job.
porker 13y ago
> I've discussed this with my mentor, who is a veteran of 3 successful start up's and has had a great career so far. He tells the modern internet techie's narrative of stress and tiredness is just plain whining, complaining and asking for sympathy. Or he could be self-filtering - after all, he made it and if others can't then they're wimps and not tough enough. Men are especially good at this. By the path he's chosen I would guess he's an alpha male to begin with.
beat 13y ago
I totally feel your pain. I'm in the same boat, day-jobbing while trying to bootstrap a startup. What I hate are the weeks where life interferes and suddenly I've gotten almost nothing done for a week. But keep your eye on the prize. Work toward liberating yourself from the day job. You may not work any less, but at least you'll be working entirely for yourself.

by kamaal 13y ago

Nursie 13y ago

>>If a 40 work week is tough, what about people like me who are having a routine 40 hour work week job and trying to bootstrap a company/work on side projects by the evening and night. You people are crazy! Now sure, you may achieve something huge and it might all be worth it. But in the mean time you're missing what remains of your youth and neglecting your family. You don't have to put that sort of time in to 'win' at life with software. You can make really good money and live a life inaccessible to 99.5% of the world's population by working 37 hours and being good at it. If you need to be part of the 0.5% then don't let me put you off trying, but I'd be giving serious thought to whether I really needed it or if my life would he better scaling it back and taking time with loved ones.

icelancer 13y ago
I am trying to change the world. So far, I've had some decent success. That will cost me part of my life, just as it has for everyone else who has changed the world in some meaningful way. It is the price we pay. And I'm not getting any younger. (Early 30's.)
- Nursie 13y ago
  I wish you luck in your goals. I don't want to change the world, I want to enjoy it, which is why I take on consultancy work and take prolonged vacations in between. Life's too short whichever path you take :)
beat 13y ago
Which is crazier? A year or two of super-long hours to free yourself from the dayjob, or just working 40 hours a week for someone else until you're too old to do it anymore? I'm in the same boat, doing a spare-time startup while holding a day job. And I"m not young - my kids are grown. But I'm paying for their college, so I can't just quit and do the startup full-time, not until I've got it generating at least a little cashflow. The trick is to overwork but try to get on the shortest (leanest) path to revenue. But keep in mind that not everyone is doing a startup to get rich. Getting rich is a nice side effect, but the heart of it for me, and for a lot of others, is personal freedom.
- Nursie 13y ago
  >> A year or two of super-long hours to free yourself from the dayjob, or just working 40 hours a week for someone else until you're too old to do it anymore? False dichotomy, there are other life choices. I'm a freelancer and I maintain a good income and a healthy work/life balance. I also don't believe it to be 'a year or two'. >> I'm in the same boat, doing a spare-time startup while holding a day job. And I"m not young - my kids are grown. Then you're in a different situation than the OP, IIRC. >> Getting rich is a nice side effect, but the heart of it for me, and for a lot of others, is personal freedom. This is why I like freelancing/contracting/consultancy. The money is good and the freedom is unparalleled.

icelancer 13y ago

>He tells the modern internet techie's narrative of stress and tiredness is just plain whining, complaining and asking for sympathy. Pretty much. When I was starting up my company, I was putting in 50 hour weeks at my IT job that I hated and another 10-30 (depending on mood) developing the tech and business processes for my current startup. We don't get to punch the clock and expect greatness.

ryanbrunner 13y ago
But isn't this article saying the exact opposite of this? It may be counter-intuitive, but every serious study I've seen regarding the amount that people work consistently says that 40 hours (or less) is ideal, and exceeding that for an extended duration (where "extended" is a very small amount of time like a few weeks) leads to negative productivity. It seems like there's often a lot of cognitive dissonance going on in these threads - when we're talking about managers or people other than us telling us to work > 40 hours a week, it's widely accepted as counterproductive, but when we do it ourselves, we ignore the data and revert back to platitudes about pushing yourself harder and not being complacent.
- Dewie 13y ago
  Those studies might have involved people doing one job for all those hours, while the grandparent worked two jobs. Depending on how different they were, the variety might have been enough to offset some of the fatigue of working up to 80 hours a week in total.
- GFischer 13y ago
  The GP post saiys he hated his 40-hour job, so we can assume he wasn't at his most productive there (it happens to me too).

flurdy 13y ago

> Plus I have a family to which I have to tend to. Often they feel I'm just not spending time with them. Working 40 hours week plus 5-6 hours afterwards every day does not mix with having a family, or especially not if you got kids. Maybe if you got a 5 minute commute you can do some hours but not 5-6. > I also see many other smart successful people putting ridiculous efforts day in and out to win. And its in every profession. And then there are the really smart people who realise they are most effective by not over doing the hours, but maximise the hours they do put in. You still have to put a good amount of effort as few fat sportsmen are successful, but also they know not to over train (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtraining https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtraining) and reduce risk of injury. I also refer to another recent HN article (http://mikehadlow.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/are-your-programmers-working-hard-or.html http://mikehadlow.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/are-your-programmer...) and its linked book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Mathematician's_Apology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Mathematician's_Apology).

kamaal 13y ago
>>does not mix with having a family Well that's the most stressful part. Its stressful because you need to be surrounded around by people who can appreciate what you are doing and why you are doing it. Either way what is I see is, and this is the case with nearly every one. Everyone's family wants a rich dad/husband/brother/wife/sister/mom, but no one really has a clue of what it takes to get there- Until they've done it themselves. I guess this is the reason why people marry in the same professions. To an extent it helps the spouse understand what the other person is going through. Also from the blog post you linked to: "I would submit that the appearance of hard work is often an indication of failure." Sorry but the author totally lost it when he wrote that.
- Nursie 13y ago
  >> Everyone's family wants a rich dad/husband/brother/wife/sister/mom, but no one really has a clue of what it takes to get there- Until they've done it themselves. Some would rather have one that is present.
  - 13y ago

robertjwebb 13y ago

Why would your employer want you to start a company or work on side projects? Think of this from the boss's perspective - they want you to dedicate all of your energy to their work, not something else that won't even make them money.

chris_mahan 13y ago
Perhaps they don't have your best interest at heart. But then again, that's your job.

porker 13y ago

> I've discussed this with my mentor, who is a veteran of 3 successful start up's and has had a great career so far. He tells the modern internet techie's narrative of stress and tiredness is just plain whining, complaining and asking for sympathy. Or he could be self-filtering - after all, he made it and if others can't then they're wimps and not tough enough. Men are especially good at this. By the path he's chosen I would guess he's an alpha male to begin with.

beat 13y ago

I totally feel your pain. I'm in the same boat, day-jobbing while trying to bootstrap a startup. What I hate are the weeks where life interferes and suddenly I've gotten almost nothing done for a week. But keep your eye on the prize. Work toward liberating yourself from the day job. You may not work any less, but at least you'll be working entirely for yourself.